Changing injectors

K-Series Programmable ECU installation questions / support issues
05typeR
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:55 pm

Changing injectors

Post by 05typeR »

hi guys,

was reading this post http://www.hondata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14485 and i have a question about when i do change my injectors to ID1000.

I will need to change:
1: injector size
2: dead time settings

1: now with these changed how far out (just an estimate) the AFRs will be on the previous tune?
2: lets say they still need some changes. 1) do i adjust the overall fuel trim or 2) or do i make adjustments on each table that needs changing like when it was first tuned with the stock injectors?

any other areas too look at?

User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Re: Changing injectors

Post by Hondata »

Assuming that the current tune is good and the short term fuels times are low.

You want to tune the injector size, dead time then fuel tables in that order. In theory for an injector change you don't need to change the fuel tables at all, but often by the time you get to the fuel tables you can find a few areas for improvement.

Set the injector size either by doing full load runs on a dyno or putting the engine under a reasonable load on the street and looking at the lambda. ID1000s often end up at about 880cc.

Set the dead times by getting the closed loop operation very close, then looking at what the lambda does under very low injector openings. On the street I often will drive in 3rd or 4th gear at about 2500 rpm, then slowly reduce throttle until the injectors shut off. If the lambda tends to go lean / short term trim rises before injector shut off, then increase the dead times very slightly. If the opposite happens (rich), then decrease the dead times. Usually you need to make changes of about 0.02 ms at a time.
Hondata

05typeR
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by 05typeR »

GREAT!!! Thanks. . .

I was fearing that I would have had to go back over all those maps again. . .since I locked the cam in position for both low and high cam and it took some time. . .I don't mind doing a bit of cleaning.

Can explain what you said about the ID1000cc injectors end up being 880cc injectors?

I understand what you meant but dont know why they would sell/advertise and injector as a 1000cc and it end up being and 880cc.


Thanks

User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Re: Changing injectors

Post by Hondata »

Look at the ID1000 page: http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html

The injectors flow just over 900cc/min at 3 bar and 14V (which is the standard test pressure and voltage). 1000 cc/min is comes from higher fuel pressures. In practice we found that 880 cc worked better than 905cc.

Also if you look you'll notice the dead times in the last table don't match the fuel flow graphs. For example, the 3 bar table shows a dead time of about 1.3ms at 14V. However, the dead time table at the bottom of the page lists a dead time of 0.990ms at 3 bar and 14V. In practice we've found that the dead times need to be much higher than those listed by ID in the last table.
Hondata

tiger
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by tiger »

Hondata wrote:Look at the ID1000 page: http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html

The injectors flow just over 900cc/min at 3 bar and 14V (which is the standard test pressure and voltage). 1000 cc/min is comes from higher fuel pressures. In practice we found that 880 cc worked better than 905cc.

Also if you look you'll notice the dead times in the last table don't match the fuel flow graphs. For example, the 3 bar table shows a dead time of about 1.3ms at 14V. However, the dead time table at the bottom of the page lists a dead time of 0.990ms at 3 bar and 14V. In practice we've found that the dead times need to be much higher than those listed by ID in the last table.
Hondata,

If this logic applies to other injectors then what do the Deatschwerks 800cc injectors typically flow at, or what should we input as the flow in KManager? I know you guys did some testing with those injectors and I am still having trouble with mine.

User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Re: Changing injectors

Post by Hondata »

Do you have DW800 or ID1000 injectors?

The DW800s flow at 800cc, ID1000s at 880cc.
Hondata

05typeR
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by 05typeR »

Hondata wrote:Look at the ID1000 page: http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html

The injectors flow just over 900cc/min at 3 bar and 14V (which is the standard test pressure and voltage). 1000 cc/min is comes from higher fuel pressures. In practice we found that 880 cc worked better than 905cc.

Also if you look you'll notice the dead times in the last table don't match the fuel flow graphs. For example, the 3 bar table shows a dead time of about 1.3ms at 14V. However, the dead time table at the bottom of the page lists a dead time of 0.990ms at 3 bar and 14V. In practice we've found that the dead times need to be much higher than those listed by ID in the last table.
Interesting!

My fuel pressure is normally around 50-53 psi (3.4-3.6 bar) so this should put me closer to the 1000cc mark seeing the 3 bar is low 900cc and 4 bar is low 1000cc.

I was going to use these for my dead times 8v - 2.855, 10v - 1.750, 12v - 1.355, 14v - 1.025, 16v - 0.815 with my stock fuel pressure @ 50-53psi.

What would you suggest setting my dead times at?

tiger
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by tiger »

Hondata wrote:Do you have DW800 or ID1000 injectors?

The DW800s flow at 800cc, ID1000s at 880cc.
I have the DW800s. 800cc is what I put in with your dead times and I still never could get the start up right. Once it started up though, they ran great.

05typeR
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by 05typeR »

05typeR wrote:
My fuel pressure is normally around 50-53 psi (3.4-3.6 bar) so this should put me closer to the 1000cc mark seeing the 3 bar is low 900cc and 4 bar is low 1000cc.

I was going to use these for my dead times 8v - 2.855, 10v - 1.750, 12v - 1.355, 14v - 1.025, 16v - 0.815 with my stock fuel pressure @ 50-53psi.

What would you suggest setting my dead times at?

User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Re: Changing injectors

Post by Hondata »

See our first post for how to set the injector dead times.
Hondata

tex_willer
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:13 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by tex_willer »

Hondata, I would like to ask you question about ID1000 and dead time.

I really didn't know before that information written in last table isn't correct in practice.

base fuel pressure is 64psi set by adjustable fpr, boost pressure is 42psi. making it overall pressure 106psi.

battery voltage is 14.5V - 14.6V.

when looking at table, it should be maybe 1350 usec dead time at 14.5V and 100+psi, and around 1000 usec at 64psi (driving without boost).

but after I read that table values are wrong in practice, can you recommend some value which should be used?

tnx!

User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Re: Changing injectors

Post by Hondata »

Set the injector size based on the fuel pressure. The FPR will increase the fuel pressure to compensate for boost, but the pressure differential between the fuel and intake manifold should stay the same at 64psi. The Flow at 4.5 bar and 14.5 V is about 1200 cc / min. Start with dead times of about 1.1 ms @ 14V
Hondata

tex_willer
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:13 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by tex_willer »

my FPR works in 1:1 ratio, so difference will stay same all time.

when you adjusting dead time, which fuel pressure you have to consider, base fuel pressure (in my case 64psi), or overall fuel pressure (base + boost, which is in my case 100+psi) ?

for example, if you adjust dead time correctly at base fuel pressure, lets look at moment you are driving under full boost and overall higher fuel pressure, does dead time which is set to work correctly at base fuel pressure still work correctly under full boost?

tnx

User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Re: Changing injectors

Post by Hondata »

Ignore the overall fuel pressure. The pressure differential between the fuel rail and intake manifold is what counts, which is constant 64 psi.
Hondata

tex_willer
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:13 pm

Re: Changing injectors

Post by tex_willer »

Hondata wrote:Ignore the overall fuel pressure. The pressure differential between the fuel rail and intake manifold is what counts, which is constant 64 psi.

tnx for info!

you said "The Flow at 4.5 bar and 14.5 V is about 1200 cc / min". voltage also affect injector maximum flow capacity?

Post Reply