ignition timing in log don't match the tables

K-Series Programmable ECU installation questions / support issues
eTiLiKo
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ignition timing in log don't match the tables

Post by eTiLiKo » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:39 am

K-manager 1.2.3.5
PND-A08 ECU
PRB calibration

This problem is more visible from 4400 to VTEC,and from 6000 to rev limit.
I attach a calibration and a datalog for sample [PRA original setting in PRB calibration].
Attachments
PRB_PRA.kal
(47.03 KiB) Downloaded 55 times
PRB_PRA 1_1.kdl
(215.4 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

eTiLiKo
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Post by eTiLiKo » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:48 am

Also a friend of mine have discovered the same problem on a PRA ECU with PRA cal.
Is it a "characteristic" of Kpro?

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Hondata
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Post by Hondata » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:56 am

The ECU has many compensations to ignition timing, so the datalogged timing often will not match the calibration.
Hondata

eTiLiKo
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Post by eTiLiKo » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:56 am

All the WOT datalog that i have show this retard.From a IAT of 30 to 45?C and from an ECT of 75 to 90?C.
This can be a problem for reliability,because if I tune the ignition with this retard,if it at a certain condition disappear the engine can have serious damage.

Mr Aryan
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Post by Mr Aryan » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:13 pm

i've noticed that in my PRA ecu last month, but did not bother asking cause i just thought of changing to PRB ecu..

Razathorn
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Post by Razathorn » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:34 pm

I'm really concerned about this as well as I've got a few cars scheduled to be tuned, not to mention my own with different water/methanol concentrations. I was out on the hottest day of the year this weekend and I was seeing intake temps of 150+ and coolant temps hanging in the high 190s low 200s but my ignition values were dead on with what the map called for, so I don't know what to think about what folks are seeing.

Wayne
2003 black RSX type-s / jrsc @ 12psi / methanol injection / aftercooled

magnEsium
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Post by magnEsium » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:58 am

Hondata wrote:The ECU has many compensations to ignition timing, so the datalogged timing often will not match the calibration.
Any chance that K-Pro can one day have the ignition compensation adjustment in parameters like S300 does?
magnEsium Tuning
http://www.magtuning.com

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Hondata
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Post by Hondata » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:12 am

There are about 40 ignition compensation tables, with many only used under certain cirumstances. If there is significant compensation it is usually from a parameter being well outside normal values - eg people who use a lower temperature thermostat.
Hondata

roland
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Post by roland » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:26 pm

Hondata wrote:There are about 40 ignition compensation tables, with many only used under certain cirumstances. If there is significant compensation it is usually from a parameter being well outside normal values - eg people who use a lower temperature thermostat.
What other parameters can cause it? My ignition is running about 3 degrees lower than what is in the tables and I would really like to figure that out. Datalog and calibration here:

http://hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8336

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Hondata
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Post by Hondata » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:07 am

Water temperature 169F and air temperature 105F are at least part of the cause. You also need to change the maximum short term trim value to something higher than 0%.
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roland
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Post by roland » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:54 am

Hondata wrote:Water temperature 169F and air temperature 105F are at least part of the cause.
Thanks for the info. I thought that water temperature was pretty normal though.

Any clue as to why I would lose 3 deg timing with these temps while Razathorn/Wayne is getting full timing at 190-200 deg coolant and 150 air temp? His car is an 2003 while mine is a 2006, could the modifications to the ECU for 05+ K-pro have anything to do with it?

Also, I read in another thread about the [IATRetardHigh] and [IATRetardLow] tables that are in the calibration file, but my IATRetardHigh values are all set to 0. Would it be wise to zero out IATRetardLow?
Hondata wrote:You also need to change the maximum short term trim value to something higher than 0%.
This was oringally an open loop tune for running leaner cruise at part throttle. I was just experimenting with closed loop and 0% s.trim. I will be changing it back to straight open loop. But what effect does a 0% max s.trim have on the ignition? Or is it just bad to do in general?

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Post by Razathorn » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:44 pm

roland wrote:
Hondata wrote:Water temperature 169F and air temperature 105F are at least part of the cause.
Thanks for the info. I thought that water temperature was pretty normal though.

Any clue as to why I would lose 3 deg timing with these temps while Razathorn/Wayne is getting full timing at 190-200 deg coolant and 150 air temp?
Yeah, I saw no ignition retard. It's worth noting that after running a few pulls with water/meth, my intake temps were in the 120 range on average, but still the values with 120 iat and higher than normal coolant temps were still spot on for the map. It's worth noting that I had recently completely power reset the ecu from doing lots of work on the car.

I'm concerned that hunting for power on the dyno will result in a car being tuned with 3-4 degrees more ignition in the map than it should have and then the ecu adding it back one day and popping the motor.
2003 black RSX type-s / jrsc @ 12psi / methanol injection / aftercooled

uncledan
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Post by uncledan » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:31 am

Along with the ignition values, if you look at cam and camcmd you will see camcmd running 1 degree below the maps also. That might not sound like much, but if the table calls for let's say 25 degrees, and cam cmd is 24 degrees wouldn't that put you in the 20 degree table instead of the 30 degree table?

uncledan

Razathorn
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Post by Razathorn » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:55 am

Another thing I noticed is that the sensors windows shows 26 degrees while the display window shows 27 while looking at a point in the datalog. Looks like a difference in rounding between the two displays.
2003 black RSX type-s / jrsc @ 12psi / methanol injection / aftercooled

magnEsium
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Post by magnEsium » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:50 pm

Bump

Currently tuning someone, had ignition on the high cam set for 30 degrees but in the datalog it is running roughly 25 degrees timing


During datalog, IATs were 130, ECT 192

I open the kal in wordpad and find ignition retard -5 degrees on LOW CAM for 130 IAT and 0 for High Cam at 130 IAT -- Although the low cam is reading proper ignition

[IATRetardLow]
; IAT ?F,Retard
0=86.196875,0
1=130.240625,5.25
2=175.4,10.75

[IATRetardHigh]
; IAT ?F,Retard
0=86.196875,0
1=130.240625,0
2=175.4,0

Why am I seeing ass backwards results here?
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