Running Rich During Cold Start

s300 and SManager software questions & answers
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IdaSol
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by IdaSol »

On cold start my AEM UGEO WB reads anywhere from --- super rich to 11:1 until the car starts to warm up. Then closed loop will kick in and the O2 will start to cycle. However, most of the time it takes about 5-10 minutes for the car to warm up to the point where it will switch to closed loop operation and this is while continuing to give the engine fuel or driving. This leads me to have a few questions that I can't seem to answer as it seems there could possibly be a few ways to fix this.

At what temperature does the car switch into closed loop?
What can I do to fix this? Should I tinker with the cold start fuel trim, post start fuel adjustment, air temp compensation, water temp compensation, or my low cam fuel map?

I'm worried that the rings are going to get washed out with fuel at this rate. I noticed that while changing my oil it smells like fuel so I can only assume the vehicle is running super rich.

Not sure where to start, or what to do.
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Hondata
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Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by Hondata »

The ECU generally switches to closed loop at around 150F, but it is a complicated decision based on IAT, ECT and vehicle speed.
Even with closed loop you should get the AF close to target. Probably you might need to look at ECT compensation. Post a datalog and the calibration if you want us to comment on it.
Hondata
IdaSol
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by IdaSol »

Sorry that it took so long to reply. I was unable to recreate the conditions that usually cause the symptoms described in Post #1 because it hasn't gotten that cold in the mornings for a while. Also, while I was waiting for the car to warm up I noticed the AF reading was different from what the gauge was displaying. I have recorded a video, which can be seen here: http://youtu.be/yIqs_dY_9cw I have attached the logs, and calibration files. The car is also experiencing a misfire during boost that I have also attached a log for.

Build Details:
Precision 5431E .63 A/R
Tial Wastegate (9lb spring)
Blueridge Motorsports Twisted Ram
Go Autoworks Charge Pipe kit and Intercooler
Skunk2 Manifold (Deleted Thermo Valve)
GSR Head with Skunk2 Springs and Retainers
RC 750CC High Impedance
AEM Wideband UEGO
Speed Factory 4 Bar
Walbro 255

(Maximum attachment count is 5; remaining logs will be in next post)
Attachments
94DelSol_IdleCold_CLEnabled.s3d
Idle, First Start, Closed Loop Enabled
(2.09 MiB) Downloaded 133 times
94DelSol_Cruise3_CLDisabled.s3d
Crusie, Closed Loop Disabled
(760.25 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
94DelSol_Cruise2_CLEnabled.s3d
Cruise, Closed Loop Enabled
(1.46 MiB) Downloaded 116 times
94DelSol_Cruise1_CLEnabled.s3d
Cruise, Closed Loop Enabled
(1.01 MiB) Downloaded 123 times
94DelSol_Calibration_CLDisabled.skl
Calibration File, Close Looped Disabled
(50.94 KiB) Downloaded 129 times
Last edited by IdaSol on Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
IdaSol
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by IdaSol »

Here are the remaining logs mentioned in the last post. I appreciate all help that can be provided. Please let me know if I can provide any more information to further assist. Thank you for your time!
Attachments
94DelSol_IdleWarm_CLDisabled.s3d
Idle, Running Temp, Closed Loop Disabled
(574.1 KiB) Downloaded 134 times
94DelSol_3rdPull_CLDisabled_Misfire.s3d
3rd Pull, Closed Loop Disabled, Let off at misfire
(102.35 KiB) Downloaded 135 times
94DelSol_3rdPull_CLDisabled.s3d
3rd Pull, Closed Loop Disabled, Ran out of road
(105.24 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
IdaSol
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by IdaSol »

I got another log, one that shows the problem that I am having perfectly. It is attached. I appreciate all the help I can get.
Attachments
94DelSol_IdleCold-to-CruiseWarm_CLEnabled.s3d
(1.84 MiB) Downloaded 164 times
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Spunkster
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Location: Hondata

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by Spunkster »

The calibration you have posted does not appear to be the one that was used with these datalogs as it is in open loop.
IdaSol
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by IdaSol »

That's because some of the logs that I posted are with Closed Loop disabled. (As donated by the name of the file, ie: CLDisabled, or CLEnabled) The calibration hasn't changed, just that one parameter.
forevertrj
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Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by forevertrj »

to improve the wideband accuracy check http://www.hondata.com/techplxwiring.html for more details as I see you are using the ELD pin D10, there may be two resistors that need removing from the board, if thats already been done, what I did with my car was got the car to idle around 14.7 then shut it off, used the sensor list to see the Wideband input voltage and used the display function to see what the ecu was reading, and slowly increased/decreased the offset voltage on the closed loop advanced page in the parameters tab, i ended up with -0.04 volts offset to correct the wideband input voltage to what the ECU was reading. the reason I shut the car off is that there is still going to be exhaust in the pipe and the gauge will have a constant reading and won't be fluctuating due to the idle changing and such. after time the wide band will go leaner and leaner and when it drops from say 14.7 to 14.8 you can see if the ECU makes the same change and if not adjust the offset voltage until it does. personally I run my wideband off of D14 O2 sensor as I only run my wideband AEM EUGO sensor. also the reason I think buddy above stated the tune didn't have closed loop enabled, was because there are 3 extra options, like wideband voltage, wideband lambda, and narrow band voltage, as in which one are you bloody well using when you running in closed loop? we don't have telepathy ^_^ upload another tune with your closed loop operations enabled. Hope any info I provided helped somewhat.
Let's not make assumptions, please leave as much detail as possible!
IdaSol
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by IdaSol »

I apologize, I could have sworn that I mentioned I use the stock OEM narrowband. I'm running this same thread parallel on a few other discussion boards so I may have just forgot.

I'm not sure if the resistors have been cut out of the board. I ended up with a -0.2v offset to get my UEGO to read close. Do you by chance happen to have the documentation on the DIP switch position on the back of the UEGO gauge? Mine is currently displaying P00 when it first starts, and I believe that if I wanted to use the 5v output for narrowband simulation I would have to switch it to P01 or P02. I just can't remember.

I'm pretty sure that I figured out the issue, I went out and pulled 2%fuel from my basemap in the idle/low throttle portion of the low fuel map, as well as removing 2% fuel on the columns that were being affected in the WCT and IAT fuel compensation tables. So far my idle has been consistently at 13:1 AFR while warming up now. This makes the car warm up faster, and I don't wash my rings out.

I suppose this thread can be closed and marked solved.
Johnny_9
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:12 am

Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by Johnny_9 »

Hondata wrote:The ECU generally switches to closed loop at around 150F, but it is a complicated decision based on IAT, ECT and vehicle speed.
Even with closed loop you should get the AF close to target. Probably you might need to look at ECT compensation. Post a datalog and the calibration if you want us to comment on it.
Very interesting. Can the help file be updated?
forevertrj
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Location: Victoria BC
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Re: Running Rich During Cold Start

Post by forevertrj »

I had to adjust my 67, 106, and 168 degree Fahrenheit on low manifold pressure for the ECT 67 degree is now 7.0, 106 is now 3.9, and 168 is now 2.3 as the engine block temperature doesn't play that much of a role effecting air density, as opposed to the IAT sensor, my car was also running in the low 11's or 10's until I adjusted the ECT. which then brought it up to 13.0/13.5, also the theory behind letting the car idle at 12.0 AFR on startup is to warm up the catalytic converter as the gas left on the cat will burn and heat up the core, if you have no CAT disregard this and adjust for 14.5-14.7
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