IAT ignition comp not working

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2006-2011 Americas Civic Si
civicRSA
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Post by civicRSA » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:25 am

Thanks Hondata. Even going back to the logic of 1.1.5.6 would be great

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Hondata
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Post by Hondata » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:49 am

The logic has not changed between 1.1.5.6 and the current version - just more tables have been exposed.
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soxfan143
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Post by soxfan143 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:56 am

civicRSA wrote:Thanks Hondata. Even going back to the logic of 1.1.5.6 would be great
Chris you have nothing to worry about. You get 0 knock so your K.control is in check. It's the guys that truly don't understand what's going on that I'm worried about. We're just talking about worst case scenario. IF you get some knock the logic can skew the ignition limit value and cause the IAT comp not to work. I have your tune setup well enough to keep everything where it needs to be.

soxfan143
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Post by soxfan143 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:57 am

Hondata wrote:We do the best we can to improve the behavior of the ECU but you must remember that we did not design the ECU - complain to Honda.

I'll see what I can do.
Yea not sure what Honda was thinking with this knock logic but thanks Hondata. We truly appreciate the effort.

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Post by mucter » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:06 pm

Hondata wrote:We do the best we can to improve the behavior of the ECU but you must remember that we did not design the ECU - complain to Honda.

I'll see what I can do.
lol....Complain to Honda? That'll go well.

You told me yourself that many times you've had to go through and simplify Honda's logic... so this is one where I'm just coming right out and saying that Honda's logic is in the way and some Derek logic would be better for all of us.

Thank you.

soxfan143
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Post by soxfan143 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:01 pm

mucter wrote:
Hondata wrote:We do the best we can to improve the behavior of the ECU but you must remember that we did not design the ECU - complain to Honda.

I'll see what I can do.
lol....Complain to Honda? That'll go well.

You told me yourself that many times you've had to go through and simplify Honda's logic... so this is one where I'm just coming right out and saying that Honda's logic is in the way and some Derek logic would be better for all of us.

Thank you.
Yea I vote for some Derek logic too. Haha..

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Post by VitViper » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:21 pm

mucter wrote:
Hondata wrote:We do the best we can to improve the behavior of the ECU but you must remember that we did not design the ECU - complain to Honda.

I'll see what I can do.
lol....Complain to Honda? That'll go well.

You told me yourself that many times you've had to go through and simplify Honda's logic... so this is one where I'm just coming right out and saying that Honda's logic is in the way and some Derek logic would be better for all of us.

Thank you.
This. The whole idea of aftermarket engine management software is so that you can replace OEM logic. Please unmarry the IAT/ECT based comps from the knock logic. Honda's engineers must of had way too much Sake the day they designed that logic.

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Post by mucter » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:10 am

VitViper wrote:
mucter wrote:
Hondata wrote:We do the best we can to improve the behavior of the ECU but you must remember that we did not design the ECU - complain to Honda.

I'll see what I can do.
lol....Complain to Honda? That'll go well.

You told me yourself that many times you've had to go through and simplify Honda's logic... so this is one where I'm just coming right out and saying that Honda's logic is in the way and some Derek logic would be better for all of us.

Thank you.
This. The whole idea of aftermarket engine management software is so that you can replace OEM logic. Please unmarry the IAT/ECT based comps from the knock logic. Honda's engineers must of had way too much Sake the day they designed that logic.
Oh you didn't know? That knock logic is what gave the Type-R its extra 20hp. Duh.

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Post by Hondata » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:30 am

VitViper wrote:Please unmarry the IAT/ECT based comps from the knock logic. Honda's engineers must of had way too much Sake the day they designed that logic.
Actually the way Honda has implemented the high ECT and high IAT retard makes sense - only retard the ignition if you're likely to knock.
The problem for us is that it relies on the knock ignition limit tables to be accurate, which is difficult to do without the automated tuning facility Honda uses.
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soxfan143
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Post by soxfan143 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:04 pm

Hondata wrote:
VitViper wrote:Please unmarry the IAT/ECT based comps from the knock logic. Honda's engineers must of had way too much Sake the day they designed that logic.
Actually the way Honda has implemented the high ECT and high IAT retard makes sense - only retard the ignition if you're likely to knock.
The problem for us is that it relies on the knock ignition limit tables to be accurate, which is difficult to do without the automated tuning facility Honda uses.
But my take on the logic is the ECU "assumes" it's gonna knock instead of actual active knock retard based on knock. Then it keeps the ignition retarded until the ECU is reset. This skews all the ignition values everywhere. For a boosted motor this is no beuno. If the logic actively pulled ignition at a knock event then put it back in. it would make more sense. But with a boosted car assuming just doesn't work. So we need to have a set ignition (MBT tables) and just pull the proper amount of ignition based on the cars reaction to a set IAT. At least that is what I like to do.

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Post by VitViper » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:17 pm

Hondata wrote:
VitViper wrote:Please unmarry the IAT/ECT based comps from the knock logic. Honda's engineers must of had way too much Sake the day they designed that logic.
Actually the way Honda has implemented the high ECT and high IAT retard makes sense - only retard the ignition if you're likely to knock.
The problem for us is that it relies on the knock ignition limit tables to be accurate, which is difficult to do without the automated tuning facility Honda uses.
It makes sense and it doesn't. With the S/C and an IAT mounted in the manifold, it makes more sense to preemptively retard the timing instead of expecting the knock logic to work. We all know how great Honda's knock logic works on S/C'd Si's.

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Post by ajpturbopittsburgh » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:48 pm

I've read the new posts and I'm still struggling. I was told that the default values in the knock control tables in the beta software will need to be modified to keep everything good with my car. I was tuned previously.

I am boosted. Where did all the default values come from? I read the help and the default values are no where close to what hondata said they should be so I don't get that. It said I think to be around 5 for colums 9 and 10 and 0 in boost.

I don't think I can go back to the 1.1.5.6 because I've already updated the firmware. What can or should I put into the knock limit tables to make the car be ok with the current main knock tables that I have?

soxfan143
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Post by soxfan143 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:02 pm

ajpturbopittsburgh wrote:I've read the new posts and I'm still struggling. I was told that the default values in the knock control tables in the beta software will need to be modified to keep everything good with my car. I was tuned previously.

I am boosted. Where did all the default values come from? I read the help and the default values are no where close to what hondata said they should be so I don't get that. It said I think to be around 5 for colums 9 and 10 and 0 in boost.

I don't think I can go back to the 1.1.5.6 because I've already updated the firmware. What can or should I put into the knock limit tables to make the car be ok with the current main knock tables that I have?
The older version worked exactly the same but we didn't have access to override the ignition limit and shut off knock retard. You need to figure out the correct settings to get your ignition limit value to 0 when in boost. But if you get ANY knock at all the ignition limit will change and the IAT comp will be skewed.

ajpturbopittsburgh
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Post by ajpturbopittsburgh » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:08 am

soxfan143 wrote:
ajpturbopittsburgh wrote:I've read the new posts and I'm still struggling. I was told that the default values in the knock control tables in the beta software will need to be modified to keep everything good with my car. I was tuned previously.

I am boosted. Where did all the default values come from? I read the help and the default values are no where close to what hondata said they should be so I don't get that. It said I think to be around 5 for colums 9 and 10 and 0 in boost.

I don't think I can go back to the 1.1.5.6 because I've already updated the firmware. What can or should I put into the knock limit tables to make the car be ok with the current main knock tables that I have?
The older version worked exactly the same but we didn't have access to override the ignition limit and shut off knock retard. You need to figure out the correct settings to get your ignition limit value to 0 when in boost. But if you get ANY knock at all the ignition limit will change and the IAT comp will be skewed.
So how do you figure out the correct settings? To get your ignition limit values to 0 all you have to do is go to the knock ignition limit tables and enter 0 for all the boost columns. Right?

So if your saying the older version was the same except now we have access to the new knock tables then nothing has changed and I should be able to load my previous cal and load it with the new beta right? Why should I have to change anything? Hondata where did all the numbers come from in the knock ignition limit tables when I open my cal in the beta? They are way higher than what you say they should be in the help section.
Last edited by ajpturbopittsburgh on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

VitViper
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Post by VitViper » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:10 pm

Guys, I think you're over-complicating this a bit. You can't rely on our knock sensor to detect legitimate knock. Sure, sometimes it will, other times it lies to you. Even then, the knock sensor is not used to dynamically control ignition on this car -- Honda did not design the logic like that.

On other applications, the ECU will use the knock sensor to dynamically and rapidly pull ignition as it starts to detect ping/knock so the car won't go full kaboom and detonate, and then put that timing back in as it senses no knock/ping. OUR LOGIC DOES NOT WORK LIKE THIS.

So... Ultimately the goal is to tune the car to MBT, and tune out the knock sensor. Then tune the ECT and IAT comps so the car doesn't knock under high IAT situations.

This is where the problem with the Honda logic arises... the last part about tuning the ECT and IAT comps. We would like/need those comps unmarried from what I consider to be completely retarded (haha, pun) knock logic in this ECU.

I'll take some of Derek's magic over Honda's reasoning on this one.

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