Page 1 of 5

IAT ignition comp not working

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:31 am
by soxfan143
Hello Hondata. Yesterday I Noticed my knock count was registering knocks for the first time in a while. Now the ambient temps have been low for the past week or so, so I wasn't in need of the IAT ignition comp tables. But yesterday the weather got hot again and I noticed that my IAT comp values were not being reflected in the log graph. Now this morning I activated live tuning and pulled 2 degrees ignition across the board on the low flow and 2 degrees minimum from the high flow. In the attached log from the beginning to about 17 minutes the IAT was 0 in the low flow and on he high flow the values were at 0 degrees retard at 86 degrees, 4 degrees retard at 125 degrees and 9 at 176, 10 at 212 and 10 at 276 but the ignition is not retarding. It's causing knocks when the IATs climb. The first log is from this morning and the second log is from yesterday when I first noticed this. The log from yesterday is the one titled IAT comp broken and V67 is the cal that was used. Thanks guys.

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:11 pm
by Spunkster
Post 1 datalog showing the problem and the calibration used and right click in the datalog and mark the spots with notes showing the problem areas.

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:40 pm
by soxfan143
Here you go. IAT comp is not pulling ANY ignition. In the second pull in that log that is marked at the end of 5th gear the IAT should have pulled 3 degrees at 125*F. Didn't pull any ignition. It's happening with every car I've tuned with this beta version. I'm worried about the 5-6 cars I've tuned since the update. And also my own car. Thanks Spunkster.

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:08 am
by civicRSA
Hondata my car is one of them that Soxfan143 has tuned and it is also having the same issue. On a hot day I will get knocks because of no ign. retard.

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:54 am
by Spunkster
Derek is away until next week. I will have him take a look at this when he returns.

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:04 pm
by soxfan143
Cool. Thanks Spunkster. I'm not crazy right though? It isn't working right?

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:22 am
by civicRSA
Here is another log for you to look at with the IAT compensation not working.

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:43 am
by Hondata
It appears that Honda has implemented the IAT ignition retard so that it is applied to the knock limit timing but not the MBT timing. You need to set the knock ignition limit close to the actual ignition timing (esp under boost) for the retard to work.

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:23 am
by civicRSA
So you mean that the values in the knock limit tables need to be the same as the values in the MBT tables?

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:35 am
by mucter
Hondata wrote:It appears that Honda has implemented the IAT ignition retard so that it is applied to the knock limit timing but not the MBT timing. You need to set the knock ignition limit close to the actual ignition timing (esp under boost) for the retard to work.
So what you're saying is that all of the compensation based retard tables in the ECU are treated the same as the knock retard tables? If the sum of the retard spec'd by all of the tables exceeds the knock ignition limit, retard is applied? Or is this a pick and choose thing? Some retard tables are affected and some aren't?

I think at this point, we need a solid answer on which tables in the ECU are affected by the knock ignition limit and which are not.

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:09 pm
by civicRSA
Well if you look at the calibration that I posted above. The knock ignition values are very close to the actual ignition values. They are only positive by 1 or 2 degrees.
So why does the retard not work then?

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:24 pm
by mucter
civicRSA wrote:Well if you look at the calibration that I posted above. The knock ignition values are very close to the actual ignition values. They are only positive by 1 or 2 degrees.
So why does the retard not work then?
Because the knock ignition limit table values don't correlate to the values in the actual MBT ignition tables in any way shape or form.

They are setting a threshold for how much specified retard can be ignored in a particular rpm/load before retard will be applied. The difference between the knock ignition limit value and the sum of all specified retard (either from comp tables or knock retard tables) is what you will get for retard on compensation.

That's an over simplification of the process, but I think the reason people are struggling so much with the knock logic in 1.1.6.2 is because they are thinking the knock ignition limit table values are related to the values in the MBT tables, and they're not, at least not directly.

When Hondata says you need to set the knock ignition limit close to the MBT value, that means you need to set the knock ignition limit to like 0 or 1. This will cause the ECU to actively retard the timing if you have a compensation that tells it to.

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:01 am
by civicRSA
Hers is my latest calibration and datalog. Note that IAT and ECT ignition compensation is not working. What you have suggested has been done.

Please can you explain why the compensation tables do not effect actual MBT table values?

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:49 am
by Hondata
Tested your calibration and the IAT compensation is working. If you still think the compensation is not working, give me the specific test you are using, the expected results and the results that you are getting.

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:51 pm
by soxfan143
Shouldn't he have more than 1 degree retard at 104 degrees IAT? I have it pulling 5 degrees at 131 F and it starts interpolating at 86 F. So by 104 it should be pulling at least 2 degrees ignition. Right? Or am I missing something? The ignition value in the log graph should be ~9 degrees by 105*F. At 9 minutes 4 seconds of his log the ignition is runnign 10* advance at 109*F IAT. It should be running 9* ignition at that point.

Also I think the degree you're seeing being pulled is the gear based ignition comp. It's pulling a half degree in 5th and 6th. Something isn't right.