Weird knocks in cylinder 3

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the FN2 European Civic Type R
sc0rcher
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Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:51 pm

Hi, i have been bothering by the a weird cyl 3 knocks for quite some time, hopefully can get some help from here.
The map i'm running is a maf base tune given to me by my tuner. Initially there are some knocks encountered in cylinder 2 and 3. I've reduced the timing at those particular spots, and after a few runs, it's getting better.
However when i further datalog, i'm suprised to see that there are an increment of knocks in cyl 3 after prolonged drive, especially when engine is hot. THe knocks just came fast and furious all in cyl 3. I've tried reducing further and the results is almost the same. I did a rts and all this become ok. However if i upload the stock equivalent map from hondata, the problem still exists, all in cyl 3. Currently i am running w/o knock control (ie. I entered 204 across all area in sensitivity low table) and base on my hearing to determine knock. THe car run well with this. However I'm just afraid in long run, this is no good for the engine. Just wondering what's is wrong with my car or is it the low sensitivity table is too long in hondata map? I've upload the problem datalog. Can see cyl 3 knocking even without high knock level spike. Please advise, thanks.
Attachments
cyl 3 knock.fpdl
(568.33 KiB) Downloaded 308 times

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:09 am

Had a run again... Same thing happen, initial half hour, everything fine. After half hour, cyl 3 knocks comes in. I used live tuning to reduce timing on the knock areas, but in vain.. even reduced to sub 10 degree for 2-3k rpm at 600-700mbar load the knock still comes... No choice i did a rts and everything is ok.
I cant find a answer and in my area no tuner can promised to eliminate this problem. I wonder what is wrong with this hondata flashpro. Feel like dumping it away...
Attachments
problem.fpdl
(45.8 KiB) Downloaded 300 times

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Spunkster
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by Spunkster » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:31 pm

IT looks like the engine is heatsoaked when this happens as the ECT is very high and Iat is alos pretty high when this occurs, then the temps begin to come down.

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:24 pm

Ya... but this temperature is the normal temperature in my country..
I'm trying with a heat range 8 plugs to test again... Hope it will be better...
Another thing spunkster, the knock sensitivity level in the MAP and MAF tune appears to be different..
Can i safely increase these table to reduce the sensitivity of the knock sensor..
After so much knocks in my recent drive, today i removed and change my plugs, the plugs looks ok w/o any
slight look of lean detonation. Is the knock sensitivity level of fp tune much more sensitive than stock? Pls advise. Tks

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Spunkster
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by Spunkster » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:51 pm

before making any changes make sure you read the help file topic about the knock control tables.

http://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/kn ... tables.htm

_Mozz_
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by _Mozz_ » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:27 pm

What are your mods mate?

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:30 am

Just a toda header, remus tail pipe and a K&N SRI... rest is all stock i presume...
Not to meddle with the hondata.. i guess will rts and sell away the hondata..\
even a base map caused knocks in the engine and retard the timing haywired...
Return to stock is the best option and i guess pple from hondata don't even know wat is the
tables they are providing..
This explains why i can get knock free when doing a return to stock, but still gets more than dozens of
knocks with a fp stock eq base map...
Wat else can explain that?
the knock control or knock sensitivity is wrong or the stock eq map are wrong... At least one of them..
& so is hondata....

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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by Hondata » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:14 am

Can you follow the posting guidelines and provide a calibration. From your first calibration 19 knock counts in 30 minutes in not excessive and not something you should be worried about.
Hondata

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:18 pm

If i ignore the knocks, the knock control goes sky high and retards everywhere... Making the car so undrivable.
Knocks is anytime and everywhere and whenever i reduce the problem area, it seems to be causing more knocks in cyl 3... The knocks are shifting from cyl 2 to cyl 3.
See the attached log, there are 61 knocks all in cyl 3 from 20 min drive, and i can reduce more and caused more of it.
I have attached the calibration as well. Or is it my car that has problem? Which part should i replaced?
Tks.
Attachments
MAF Tune map.fpcal
(11.93 KiB) Downloaded 297 times
cyl 3 exploding.fpdl
(396.21 KiB) Downloaded 277 times

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:44 am

Spunkster wrote:before making any changes make sure you read the help file topic about the knock control tables.

http://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/kn ... tables.htm
Spunkster, tks for the info.. Ya.. I understand.. had read it upteem times..

Again, the Honda knock control is only designed to compensate for different quality fuel. It will not (quickly) actively retard and advance the ignition as some other make vehicles will do. If you de-sensitize the knock sensor by adjusting the knock sensitivity table because of noisy cams, don't expect the knock control to detect knock reliably.

The knock retard happens anywhere where KIL is low (maybe less than 5), actually I also dont understand when it came in. In the help file it was mentioned only when KIL is negative, but reality is not so.. it can retard at cells where KIL is 7 or 8 degree, or even higher? I don't know.

I can also decipher it as if value in KIL table is more than value in Knock retard [KIL of best octane(value in MBT table + value in KIL table) - KIL of worse (KIL of best octane - knock retard)], MBT is already running in lowest octane, therefore there wont be any knock retard.
Therefore as long as value in KIL table is lower than value in knock retard, there might be a chance for ign to be retarded. And this retard will be reflected in knock retard in the sensor. However if KIL is lower than MBT, it will automatically be used as the advance.

However in my log, i noticed that some of the time, timing is much lower than the MBT set, where there are no retard and KIL is positive. Why is this so? And it is during such instances, I've got dozen of knocks.. Maybe timing too low causing the knocks?

I guess we need more information on the knock control portion. THe help files are too vague. Or anyone who is experienced care to explain?

Tks

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:40 am

Another thing I was wondering.. WHy the knock sensitivity values in the MAF calibrations and MAP calibrations are different for the same car?

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:38 pm

Again, today i start from fresh with my base map. As usual, knock occurs at cyl 2 which physically i can heard some pinging.
I reduce and fine tune the timing until there are close to none. But when the car gets hot.. Cyl 3 starts giving random knocks again. I've posted the datalog.
I uploaded a hondata stock eq MAF calibration for my FN2. Crazy knocks came in 20-30 in less than 3 min.
Put the car into retarded mode beyond driven.
I put the car to stock using RTS. THere are no knocks registered, but knock control goes sky high in a matter of seconds.
My car wasn't used to be like this. I guess Hondata FLASH PRO has screw up my ECU. Can the person in charge take a look at this? My car is faulty or HONDATA FLASH PRO IS SCREW UP??

Don need me to upload the calibration as it is the stock equ map in YOUR FLASHPRO.
Attachments
RTS.fpdl
(91.44 KiB) Downloaded 261 times
hondata stock map!!.fpdl
(52.43 KiB) Downloaded 279 times

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:19 am

Can the admin or whoever looks at this? Basically the only thing i can do now is turn off the knock control.
I can't even return my car to stock with the sky high knock retard and continues knocking.
The knock control wont come down. Or is there something seriously wrong with my car?
Can't be as I'm using ron98 and engine mileage is less than 30km.

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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by Spunkster » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:59 am

This sounds like there may be something wrong with the car. If this were a software issue, everyone would be having this problem. Have you adjusted your valves recently?

sc0rcher
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Re: Weird knocks in cylinder 3

Post by sc0rcher » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:13 am

I've not touched e valve or anything inside e engine. What could be e problem? Valve seal? Or head gasket?

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