Throttle body swaps

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Hondata
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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Hondata » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:41 am

Then is it likely that the numbers and tests ran on this thread are a bunch of smoke?
Why would we fake these tests? They were performed so that people could know why their large throttle body would not respond to an under sized controller. If you doubt us, then provide your own test results, rather than casting FUD on our testing.

With the ITBs I suspect that if you measure the current for all 4 the current is would be reaching the limitation of the driver, but the effect was not noticeable. Without measuring the actual current you do not know. Also the current is based on the physical load on each throttle plate, which will be less for each throttle body with ITBs as the load on each one is less than for a single throttle body.
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peteyj88
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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by peteyj88 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:07 am

Hondata wrote:
Then is it likely that the numbers and tests ran on this thread are a bunch of smoke?
Why would we fake these tests? They were performed so that people could know why their large throttle body would not respond to an under sized controller. If you doubt us, then provide your own test results, rather than casting FUD on our testing.

With the ITBs I suspect that if you measure the current for all 4 the current is would be reaching the limitation of the driver, but the effect was not noticeable. Without measuring the actual current you do not know. Also the current is based on the physical load on each throttle plate, which will be less for each throttle body with ITBs as the load on each one is less than for a single throttle body.
Hondata wrote:
Then is it likely that the numbers and tests ran on this thread are a bunch of smoke?

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to be interpreted that way. I'm not saying it's fake and mean no disrespect by it. Maybe that was the wrong word. As I said prior I'm looking to get another S and was wondering about the limitations of cable vs DBW for tuning purposes. I know you guys are very reputable and don't doubt your testing methods or results. What I was getting at was that I found it curious that an oversize throttle body, say a skunk2 that's 72mm I believe would put more pressure on the controller than 4 individual ones. But then you explained that in your post above. This again leads me back to my original question, the ZDX throttle body is 70mm, the outlet at least. The stock S is I believe 68 and a little bit. Will these additional 3 mm of flow(assuming the use of the skunk2) make such a drastic difference that it will take the IC controller "over the edge" so to speak?
If so, then it can be safe to conclude that if you want to tune your S and can in the future foresee needing a larger throttle body to help with breathing better, that a cable driven throttle body will be superior to DBW because of it doesn't have this potential IC unit overheating problem?

Again, my apologies if it came off offensive as that was not my intention.

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Hondata » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:00 am

It depends on what motor the skunk2 throttle body uses. If it is the same as stock, then there may be no difference. But then Honda uses a more powerful motor as the size goes up. You'd have to test it.
With throttle body size it does not make any difference up to a certain air flow. Stock 62mm is good for 250+ hp before you start to see significant flow restriction. With the S2000 the intake manifold is the major restriction, as it is made to fit the engine bay. A larger throttle body will expose more area for the same angle, so the throttle response feels better, even if the power is the same. BTW many people measure their throttle body inlet diameter, which makes no sense The outlet diameter is what actually matters.
In any case your throttle body is determined by the year and ECU type - you can't change from DBW to cable or vice versa.
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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Gernby » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:47 am

peteyj88 wrote:
Gernby wrote:The '06+ S2000 already has a larger diameter throttle body than the '00-'05, which is about the same diameter as the older TB's after having them re-bored to their largest possible diameter. Also, the OEM actuator is strong enough to drive 4 60mm ITB's over 20K+ daily-driven miles without any failures.
Cool! Thanks for the info. I figured this would be the case. Then is it likely that the numbers and tests ran on this thread are a bunch of smoke? I'm not doubting Hondata's knowledge about this one bit nor do I think they wasted their time on these tests, actually on the contrary I think it's very useful info as a sort of gauge but I can't help but wonder. If these tests claim a potential overheat from using ONE larger throttle body, then surely 4 would be overkill and according to their evidence should easily fry the DBW throttle controller? So again back to my original point, was this whole testing thing kind of.......a waste? Or maybe only specifically applied to all other Honda DBW applications?
I don't think Hondata was incorrect. I'm using just 1 OEM actuator to drive my ITB's, so there isn't that much more electric load on the controller. I believe the risk of using a larger throttle body from a different platform (i.e. Acura ZDX) would be that it would likely have more electric load.
'06 NFR S2000

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by peteyj88 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:23 am

Hondata wrote:It depends on what motor the skunk2 throttle body uses. If it is the same as stock, then there may be no difference. But then Honda uses a more powerful motor as the size goes up. You'd have to test it.
With throttle body size it does not make any difference up to a certain air flow. Stock 62mm is good for 250+ hp before you start to see significant flow restriction. With the S2000 the intake manifold is the major restriction, as it is made to fit the engine bay. A larger throttle body will expose more area for the same angle, so the throttle response feels better, even if the power is the same. BTW many people measure their throttle body inlet diameter, which makes no sense The outlet diameter is what actually matters.
In any case your throttle body is determined by the year and ECU type - you can't change from DBW to cable or vice versa.
Oh I see, now it makes more sense. It seems to me that the skunk2 has a fitting so that the stock IC plugs up to it, I don't believe it uses its own. Based on what you're saying it seems that the larger ZDX ones have their own unit that may force the IC unit in the S to work harder? If that's the case, then this answers my question perfectly and it makes sense why swapping another larger throttle body could be a bad thing but putting a larger aftermarket one may not. Again I'm looking at this more from a throttle body perspective. I'm aware of the potential issue with the intake manifold but purely from a throttle body size increase application perspective, this makes sense if I'm understanding you correctly.

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Hondata » Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:59 pm

No, the throttle controller is either in the ECU (most ECUs) or a separate box (S2000 & TSX). The larger stock throttle bodies have a more powerful motor which draws more current (ZDX = almost twice as much). This current over load will shut down the ICs in the throttle controller under high load situations.
With the skunk2 I've got no idea what motor they have used. If you have one and measure the resistance you can get a rough idea from the resistance listed in my first post. My other point was that the skunk2 throttle plate is an unknown size larger than stock, but probably not 74mm.
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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by peteyj88 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:47 am

Hondata wrote:No, the throttle controller is either in the ECU (most ECUs) or a separate box (S2000 & TSX). The larger stock throttle bodies have a more powerful motor which draws more current (ZDX = almost twice as much). This current over load will shut down the ICs in the throttle controller under high load situations.
With the skunk2 I've got no idea what motor they have used. If you have one and measure the resistance you can get a rough idea from the resistance listed in my first post. My other point was that the skunk2 throttle plate is an unknown size larger than stock, but probably not 74mm.
Ok I officially get it now. I think this is very useful info to post for anyone who wants to take this route in the future for reference. I'm going to reach out to skunk2 to see if they have any info on that. Nonetheless, I definitely see the point in testing this now and how it could potentially be a serious problem. I don't know how skunk2 designed it so I'm not sure if it's a bigger stronger motor in the throttle body but I know 2 people that did this mod to their cars. They ran into a couple of other issues but none related to failing/overheating IC units that ice heard of which mught mean they either use stock power or might increase peak voltage by a little but not enough to cause overload. Either way I think this is good info. I'm going to reach out to skunk2 and see what they say and post it here for completeness sake.
Thanks again guys for the help and again sorry for the misunderstanding.

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Hondata » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:20 am

The output ICs don't fail or overheat - when they reach their maximum current they shut down to protect themselves. This usually starts to close the throttle, and then the ECU triggers an error when it sees the actual is different from the target.
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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by peteyj88 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:29 am

Hey guys, just wanted to follow up. So I reached out to skunk2. Turns out their throttle body comes without any of the internals. You'd have to unassemble the OEM throttle body and install these on theirs which according to them is a very straight forward process. So even though it's a larger throttle body, it doesn't seem that it'll have any bearing on whether it overworks the IC unit to the point of shutting down. Again, I haven't measured anything, simply putting 2 and 2 together but I thought it would be good to add to this thread to centralize info related to this since it seems that installing a throttle body that doesn't belong(go figure) could cause issues.

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by imstimpy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:47 pm

Hondata, do you know the years for the Civic SI and the TL-S throttle bodies in this test?

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Hondata » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm

The 8th gen Si used the same throttle body for all years 2006-2011. TL throttle body was 07-I'm not sure it matters - no TL throttle body is the same as the Si throttle body.
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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by honda_racer07 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:30 am

peteyj88 wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:29 am
Hey guys, just wanted to follow up. So I reached out to skunk2. Turns out their throttle body comes without any of the internals. You'd have to unassemble the OEM throttle body and install these on theirs which according to them is a very straight forward process. So even though it's a larger throttle body, it doesn't seem that it'll have any bearing on whether it overworks the IC unit to the point of shutting down. Again, I haven't measured anything, simply putting 2 and 2 together but I thought it would be good to add to this thread to centralize info related to this since it seems that installing a throttle body that doesn't belong(go figure) could cause issues.
I'm curious as to if you could steal the motor from our si throttle body and install it into the larger zdx? Any thoughts?

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by zaramatt » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:58 pm

That is exactly what I did, never had a problem ran perfect.

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Re: Throttle body swaps

Post by Blaze2051 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:25 pm

I cant the MDX 70mm which i think its the same as the zdx, but i did a straight swap and never had an issue at least i dont think i did.

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