New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2007-2008 US TSX
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wagonfanatic
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 am

New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by wagonfanatic »

This topic was originally started under another thread on the Flashpro board - but relocating it here so that it can be of use to other TSX owners. I'll paste in some of the comments off that thread, from a very helpful user on the Flashpro Board, EFICU, for completeness.

Background on the Car:
I've modded my 2011 TSX 5Door with an RV6 Downpipe, Magnaflow aftermarket mufflers, added a Vibrant resonator, and swapped out the stock air intake box filter with a K&N High Performance one. I knew I'd need a tune to take any real advantage of these gains, and I also worried I might need to disable the Secondary O2 sensor, because the RV6 often causes a CEL otherwise. That lead me to buying a Flashpro.

Background on the Tune:
I read about a 600 post long thread on the Acurazine boards about Flashpro, and decided to download a custom Map a user had shared, as a starting point for my tune. My logic was that the stock 2.4i is pretty much the same car to car, and if I chose a map made for a car with similar mods - it should be a pretty good start. And since this map was developed by a paid tuner, it's probably going to be better than what I will produce right out the gate. Worth noting that the pro-tuner was aware this map was being shared with the Acurazine community and said he had no problem with it. My baseline starting map is attached to this post. In the notes, its is version 5.2 and that was the last one posted on Acurazine. v5.8 shows up on the Honda Vault, but to date I've been unable to download it without an error.

Background on my skill level: Beginner to LOW Intermediate
I have some minimal experience with tuning and editing various ECU tweaks, but all from when I was driving BMWs (I used E-Sys, Bimmercode, MHD Flasher, and did a piggyback tune with a JB4). Flashpro is a VERY different interface, and I'm struggling but eager to learn.
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wagonfanatic
Posts: 14
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Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by wagonfanatic »

For completeness, this is the error I keep seeing when trying to pull down v5.8 from Vault. In any case I proceeded with Flashing v5.2 to my car.
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wagonfanatic
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Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by wagonfanatic »

After some trial and error I managed to gather a few brief datalogs. However, with full disclosure - I really don't know what I am looking for that would indicate problems needing to be addressed in the tune. I was able to see a number of knock counts that really trouble me. But from a pure driving standpoint, the car pulled noticeably harder, and I especially liked the new throttle mapping. I get the vague sense that something is slightly off while driving but really like the improved power and responsiveness overall. So that's where another Hondata forum user, jumped in and offered the following (greatly appreciated) help and advice:
EFICU wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:04 am Gotcha, I figured you had your eye set on a certain map based on your desire for one from the vault. Yeah honestly you'd be surprised how far off cars are from one to the other. Granted it might be a good start yes, but just be mindful it will most likely still need a lot of work. I see a lot of guys fishing for basemaps like this and then run them without looking over everything. Sounds like you're aware of that, so you should be fine.

How are the fuel trims and everything on the v5.2? Have you made any changes to it?
wagonfanatic wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:17 am I am still trying to figure out what I should be checking for problems. I know about knock counts, and am researching fuel trims. What else should I be looking for? The videos on the Hondata site show HOW to check a lot of these tables, but doesn't really go into which ones I need to be checking, nor indicate what is good vs. bad.
EFICU wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:04 am ... Depending on your calibration, you want to check low and high cam fuel trims, low and high am WOT fueling, ignition tables, injector pulse for vtec crossover, injector duty cycle, knock retard based on knock control percentage. Lots of things honestly, hard to list, it's all muscle memory honestly. But if your basemap isn't set up right, you'll be chasing a lot of things because WOT pressures and vtec pressure won't be setup properly. Not to mention proper open and closed loop transition as well. If you can make a datalog using the datalog button on the Flashpro, post it and the calibration and then I can tell you where to look and what to focus on.
wagonfanatic
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 am

Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by wagonfanatic »

I took two short datalogs (attached in case anyone is interested in reading along). This was the response:
EFICU wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:51 pm So I quickly looked over both datalogs. Not terrible on the fueling, but they can certainly use some touch ups.
Glad to hear about the fueling. For my own education though, can you tell me how you reviewed the fueling and what about it you were looking for to indicate problems?
EFICU wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:51 pm The knock is extremely concerning to me. What concerns me more than the knock is the fact that it looks like the knock control system has been bypassed which means your car is seeing a lot of knock and not able to pull timing to protect itself. Lot's of tuners turn it off when they tune your ignition properly, which is okay technically. I leave it on but I loosen it some so it will only step in when it sees knock. Say if you got some bad fuel or lower than advertised octane. Being the the tables are not tuned for your car specifically, this shouldn't be bypassed.

Can you post up the calibration you're driving on so I can look at it? I will need you to make longer datalogs, but for now if you can shoot me the calibration I can look it over real quick. We should also make a new thread in the 11-14 TSX forum so we don't keep adding to this one. Let me know asap. I'd like to get rid of that knock before you do too much driving if possible.


Yes, I agree the knock counts are extremely concerning to me as well. The calibration is posted at the top of this new thread.

Regarding the knock control system being bypassed, I think that is intentionally done often when the RV6 downpipe is installed. Even before I installed this tune, I hadn't seen any CEL's, so I'm open to going back to closed loop control.
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EFICU
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Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by EFICU »

Okay, where to start here... Reading over your post in here, one thing that stood out to me is you mention the throttle mapping. Are you referring to the actual throttle pedal map in the tune? Because the throttle MAP in your tune is the same as the stock calibration.

So the knock control isn't bypassed in the manner I thought. It is bypassed though, in that it's designed to add timing within the tune instead removing timing in sensitive areas. With your intake temps at 118*, it should be pulling at least 4* if timing, your tune is actually adding 2-3* over the table. The ignition being delivered to the engine should never be more than the ignition in the tables. The ignition in the tables should be the max, then when it sees knock or intake temps above 86* it will pull timing. So the fact that it is adding timing in 118* intake temps is not a good thing. This could be part of the knock. The knock control is bypassed on the high cam, so it would never pull timing no matter how much knock it sees. Again not how I would do things, unless perhaps the ignition is tune for your car, but still I like to have some protection.

With that said, the only way the RV6 DP can cause a false knock is if it's making an audible noise the knock sensor can pick up. Are you hearing or feeling any clanking or banging noise coming from the DP on a crossmember or anything?

Yeah the rear o2 is turned off in the tune, so it wouldn't show a check engine light no matter what the rear o2 sensor had for a defouler or not.

Other than the knock ignition limit tables adding timing, there are a few other things that are less than ideal in my opinion. I would really like to work on getting rid of the knock to see if it's false knock or not. Let me know how much help you want. I put together a file with how I set up things, or we an tweak the file you have. Although tweaking your file will be difficult with everything bypassed like it is.

As mentioned above, the pedal map is just the stock map, I actually tune that pedal relationship when I do it.

I would also recommend tuning it properly by locking the VTC on one cam angle at a time to build out the fuel tables which is the proper way to do it. Then once we finish locking it on one cam angle at a time, we blend everything out and build an actual cam angle map for your car. The cam angle map in your tune is the OEM cam angle map with some changes to the high cam.

I guess let me know how much help you want with it and we'll go from there. No disrespect to the guys who put the file together or the tuner, but I don't think this is setup properly or at least how I how I would do them. if you run the compare feature on the stock TSX calibration versus yours, very little has been adjusted in all honesty

Sorry for the long winded post...
wagonfanatic
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 am

Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by wagonfanatic »

EFICU wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:50 pm Okay, where to start here... Reading over your post in here, one thing that stood out to me is you mention the throttle mapping. Are you referring to the actual throttle pedal map in the tune? Because the throttle MAP in your tune is the same as the stock calibration.

So the knock control isn't bypassed in the manner I thought. It is bypassed though, in that it's designed to add timing within the tune instead removing timing in sensitive areas. With your intake temps at 118*, it should be pulling at least 4* if timing, your tune is actually adding 2-3* over the table. The ignition being delivered to the engine should never be more than the ignition in the tables. The ignition in the tables should be the max, then when it sees knock or intake temps above 86* it will pull timing. So the fact that it is adding timing in 118* intake temps is not a good thing. This could be part of the knock. The knock control is bypassed on the high cam, so it would never pull timing no matter how much knock it sees. Again not how I would do things, unless perhaps the ignition is tune for your car, but still I like to have some protection.

With that said, the only way the RV6 DP can cause a false knock is if it's making an audible noise the knock sensor can pick up. Are you hearing or feeling any clanking or banging noise coming from the DP on a crossmember or anything?

Yeah the rear o2 is turned off in the tune, so it wouldn't show a check engine light no matter what the rear o2 sensor had for a defouler or not.

Other than the knock ignition limit tables adding timing, there are a few other things that are less than ideal in my opinion. I would really like to work on getting rid of the knock to see if it's false knock or not. Let me know how much help you want. I put together a file with how I set up things, or we an tweak the file you have. Although tweaking your file will be difficult with everything bypassed like it is.

As mentioned above, the pedal map is just the stock map, I actually tune that pedal relationship when I do it.

I would also recommend tuning it properly by locking the VTC on one cam angle at a time to build out the fuel tables which is the proper way to do it. Then once we finish locking it on one cam angle at a time, we blend everything out and build an actual cam angle map for your car. The cam angle map in your tune is the OEM cam angle map with some changes to the high cam.

I guess let me know how much help you want with it and we'll go from there. No disrespect to the guys who put the file together or the tuner, but I don't think this is setup properly or at least how I how I would do them. if you run the compare feature on the stock TSX calibration versus yours, very little has been adjusted in all honesty

Sorry for the long winded post...
Not long winded, very much appreciated and I'm already learning a great deal about viewing the logs. Now that I've a few files to look at, I've gone back and rewatched all the videos on the Flashpro page as well as a few Youtube videos. My biggest fear is that I'm doing damage to the engine with this, so if I need to go back to stock and start slower, that's what I'll do.

And regarding pedal map tables, I'll be damned! You're right, that is exactly the same as stock. So I guess the responsiveness change is all in my head. Although I just remembered, I've also tried running the TSX-13-1-AT-CARB map that comes with Flashpro (raised rev limit, removed speed limit, improved throttle response, etc.). For safety sake, I think I will backtrack to that for now, try running a few more logs and see if the knock goes away.

And no I'm not hearing or feeling any clanking or banging from the DP while driving.

The million dollar question is - as you said, how much help do I want? I've thought about just paying for a full pro tune, but at the same time hoped to become more adept at monitoring my logs to know if there are problems down the road. So I'm open to your suggestions on this - do you recommend any reputable tuners... are you a pro tuner?.. Based on your feedback so far, I clearly need to abandon this custom calibration map. But there is truly only 1 damn calibration that comes with Flashpro and that's the CARB one I mentioned above. So either I need to rapidly become an adept Flashpro user, pay somebody, or stick to stock. I desperately want to be able take advantage of any and all power gains from my mechanical modifications, though.
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EFICU
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Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by EFICU »

There really isn't much you can do to harm the engine other than leave that much knock in the car if it is real knock, which we should find out asap. You don't necessarily need to go back to stock and start fresh unless you want to. I made a basemap for you by fixing what I see in the file you have. You're more than welcome to start with it and then we can adjust for knock and fuel. As mentioned, we should honestly go through and tune each cam angle properly, but again it's all up to you.

Yeah I've got two pedal maps I use in 8th and 9th gens that would probably work well in your car. Although being an auto, I haven't tested it on an auto.

Make your datalogs in the 20-30 minutes range so you can get a good average data to make adjustments. With the short datalogs you posted, there isn't really enough average data to make well informed adjustments. In the datalog, you need to make a wide open throttle (WOT) pull in second or third gear from 2000-redline so you can work on the WOT fueling. Third gear might get you near 100mph, so you might want to do the pull in second gear. Then you can get a full scope of part throttle driving and WOT fueling.

Tough call on which way to go. You need to get it safe for now before you start trying to learn how to do the things you want to. With the knock that is occurring, assuming it is real, needs to be addressed asap. Especially with the hot weather on the way in TX. I'm not what I would call a pro tuner compared to the people with big name reputations. I do have a business side to all this, but I help a lot of guys on here mostly like yourself who have legitimate issues and need the help. As far as e-tuners, if you don't want help from me I would recommend hitting up Tuning by Nick, Evans Tuning, or E-Tunez. They probably have some of the best reputations out there. I send all the tunes over my skills to Tuning by Nick. As far as dyno tuners, let me know where in Texas you are and I can help you find someone good. Main thing is finding a dyno tuner that tunes more than just WOT. I've had a few people I've helped get dialed who then went to get dyno tuned send me datalogs from after the dyno tune, and I've seen knock, fuel trims that are way off, and overall poor attention to detail or taking shortcuts. The three places I mention won't do any of those things, but please do your research if you get dyno tuned. It bothers me to no end helping you guys and then you get dyno tuned with less than stellar fuel trims and stuff.

You don't want the CARB tune. You can't make any adjustments to it and it's designed to be emissions friendly. As mentioned, I built you a basemap based on your file but with the adjustments I would recommend. I can throw in my pedal map and take it for a datalog to see how it goes. If you really don't want to go in and tune it properly by locking the VTC, we can adjust ignition and fueling on it as it sits. I would go this route so we can get the knock out of it, get it to where you can enjoy it, then learn how to do it on your own and then start to tune it yourself if you want. I'm not fishing for money from you, I'll help you as much as you want, I just hate seeing you guys frustrated, and the knock it's showing needs to be removed. We can get it to a point where you can really enjoy the car, then learn to tune this stuff yourself at your own pace and make your own tweaks or complete tune.

Totally up to you man. Even if you datalog it on the stock calibration, chances are you won't be happy with the fuel trims and what you see either. If you want to go the dyno route let me know where you live and be prepared to travel to get it done right.
wagonfanatic
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Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by wagonfanatic »

EFICU wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:51 am There really isn't much you can do to harm the engine other than leave that much knock in the car if it is real knock, which we should find out asap. You don't necessarily need to go back to stock and start fresh unless you want to. I made a basemap for you by fixing what I see in the file you have. You're more than welcome to start with it and then we can adjust for knock and fuel. As mentioned, we should honestly go through and tune each cam angle properly, but again it's all up to you.

Yeah I've got two pedal maps I use in 8th and 9th gens that would probably work well in your car. Although being an auto, I haven't tested it on an auto.

Make your datalogs in the 20-30 minutes range so you can get a good average data to make adjustments. With the short datalogs you posted, there isn't really enough average data to make well informed adjustments. In the datalog, you need to make a wide open throttle (WOT) pull in second or third gear from 2000-redline so you can work on the WOT fueling. Third gear might get you near 100mph, so you might want to do the pull in second gear. Then you can get a full scope of part throttle driving and WOT fueling.
Cool - well then I'm totally on board to work with you addressing the knock and fuel, and I'm sure I'll keep learning as we go. I am interested in a more aggressive pedal map as well. So yes please, if you don't mind sharing the tweaked basemap I'll install it and go gather more datalogs. Once we get to "safe" I'll decide if I want to go all in on a paid tune.

Just let me know how best to proceed. If I need to do anything particular during the log sessions, let me know - otherwise I'll follow the advice you gave and re-upload the logs here.
EFICU
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Re: New to Flashpro - starting with another user's map as baseline on 2011 TSX Wagon

Post by EFICU »

Sounds good. So among other things, I went in and pulled a bunch of timing just to get us started to see how the knock looks. If the knock is gone I will bump it back up, but I want to try and kill the knock right away and then we can work our way back up. I always try to creep up on stuff, unless it's excessive knock, then I take big swings to get rid of it.

Yeah once we get it safe there are no hard feelings on my end if you go with someone else. Just trying to get you out of the hole you're in. I'm sure you'll be pretty happy with it by the end. With the stock airbox in there, the intake temps will always be hot. So we will get as much out of it as we can, but that will be our limiting factor. At 118* it's pulling roughly 4* of timing and 3-5% fuel to keep it all happy. On super hot days it will probably get above 140* intake temps where you live.

So here is the first version for you. Take it for a 20-30 minute drive with stop and go type signal light to signal light type driving, this populates the most data for us. Then on the drive, make one wide open throttle (WOT) pull in second gear from 2000-7600rpms so we can get a good look at the fueling. Depending on how this one looks, I will probably recommend we lock cam angles for a few files so we can do it right and see where it's happiest. But again, you let me know which direction you want to go, I'll just give my opinion as we go.

Under the calibration tab is some customer info questions, if you can please fill that section out and email the info to me at the email in the tab I would appreciate it. So I can make a customer file for you and not have to post your info on here.
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