Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

2012+ US/Canadian Civic Si / 2013+ ILX
Gernby
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Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:23 am

I initially reported this last year in this thread, then reported (incorrectly) that it was working after all. However, I know now that I was just getting the Civic and S2000 mixed up. It turns out that live tuning of Throttle vs Flow does NOT work for the '13 Civic Si, but it does work for the S2000.

If there is any way you could release a new version with this fixed soon, that would be wonderful!
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Hondata » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:15 am

How are you determining it does not work? It is the whole table or just when using live tuning?
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:12 am

The table itself does work, but the changes made using Live tuning do not have any impact. The changes don't actually get applied until the full calibration is reflashed. While dialing in my cold and warm starts with A/C on and off, lights on and off, etc., I was using several tables in Live tuning mode (Fuel Low, Cranking Fuel, lots of throttle parameters, etc.), and everything seemed to work fine except for Throttle vs Flow. I thought I had everything dialed in, but once I did a full upload of the calibration, it barely ran. It took me a while to figure out that the issue was that the throttle vs flow updates I had been making were not actually being used until I uploaded it. Once I backed the throttle changes back out, everything was fine.

It is repeatable, so I can send some datalogs if you need them.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:24 am

I've attached 3 datalogs that demonstrate the issue.
Datalog 1 was recorded just after uploading a calibration with live tuning enabled on throttle vs flow
Datalog 2 was recorded just after making a significant change to the throttle vs flow table
- After making the change to the table, I cleared DTC's, clicked "Update all live tuning tables", then started the car.
Datalog 3 was recorded just after uploading the calibration again. If Live tuning was working, I would expect this datalog to be identical to datalog 2.

Note that Datalogs 1 and 2 are virtually identical, but they should be very different.
Attachments
Datalog1.fpdl
(9.1 KiB) Downloaded 40 times
Datalog3 - after uploading.fpdl
(9.61 KiB) Downloaded 45 times
Datalog2 - after live tuning change.fpdl
(8.45 KiB) Downloaded 44 times
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Hondata » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:53 pm

We've tested on a 2012 and it works as expected, both for the index (throttle position) and value (flow). Both for regular upload and for live tuning. If you change the index by 1 degree then you should immediately see the throttle open by the same amount. After that the idle control will start to correct things. Likewise if you decrease the table values you should see the throttle open to compensate.
If your testing still shows a problem then we'll re-test with a 2013, but we did check the binaries and table definitions, and they are the same.
On you datalog the manifold pressure is much high than we see for the same ECT. I'm not sure why this would be.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:32 am

I just noticed this post...

I will test this using the steps you describe while recording a datalog.

The MAP value is higher due to me having DBW ITB's. I know you don't support the use of FlashPro for ITB's, but I just wanted to make you aware of the issue.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:23 pm

I performed the test you suggested, and confirmed that changing the angle or flow had no impact as the engine was idling.

Image

Image
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Hondata » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:16 pm

I suspect that it is because the MAP is outside the idle parameters.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:56 am

You mean that live tuning won't update the values in the ECU's RAM, since the MAP value is higher? My S2000 and Civic both idle at around 400 mBar fully warmed up with the A/C off, and around 480 mBar with the A/C on. I'm able to use Live Tuning on that table without any issues on my S2000, so I would think that the Civic would work similarly.

However, I see in the screen shot above that my MAP value was particularly high at the time, since I've been jacking with everything trying to find a workaround for the LTRIM issue.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Hondata » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:00 am

No, I'm suggesting that the ECU is seeing conditions outside normal and therefore has unpredictable behavior. eg The ECU may not read the throttle to air flow table at 50 kPa because it doesn't think it needs to. You can't compare the S2000 operation with the 2012 Si, as they have vastly different ECU parameters.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:31 am

Do you think that same issue would prevent the live update from being applied before starting the motor? The way I've been trying to use live tuning with that table is to make a change with the ignition on / engine off, then click update all live tuning tables, then start the engine. However, the live changes don't get applied.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Hondata » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:01 am

I've tested the procedure you described and it works as expected (although you don't need to click on update all tables).
Live tuning essentially moves the table from flash to ram. It either works for everyone or doesn't work for anyone. If the ECU is ignoring changes to the flow table it is because it is not reading the table, possibly because it doesn't think it needs to.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:21 pm

If that's true, then I would be concerned about Live Tuning in general, since I wouldn't expect there to be a difference in outcome between a change while Live Tuning vs a full upload. The ECU definitely uses the modified values in the table IF I upload the calibration.

Basically, this table works very well, and is very important in my tune. It just can't be tuned via Live Tuning on my car.
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Hondata » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:25 pm

There is a big different between making a live tuning change to a table and a full upload - the ECU clears all memory and resets after an upload.
Is your vacation just about over?
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Re: Throttle vs Flow table live tuning doesn't work

Post by Gernby » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:01 pm

If there is any difference between live tuning and a full upload (in temporary observed results), why would a tuner use it?

I'm not on vacation. I'm just trying to finish this development project, so I can make some money from it.
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