Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Civic 2016+ 1.5 Turbo
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brandonckc
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Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by brandonckc »

I have a 2016 base civic 1.5T CVT with a hondata flashpro, and just last week custom tuned running at 21psi boost on RON97 fuel. After the tune i've noticed i have these knock count numbers showing on the hondata app version 1.5 for in car screen. Flashpro manager has been updated to (V.3.4.2) at the time of tuning.

Before this, i would get 0 knock count on 19.5psi tuned.
Not sure whether is flashpro manager version(V.3.0.6) i used previously, have some sort of bug and wouldn't show any knock count. However, my knock control stay around 54.69% with normal drive and up to 66% if i did a WOT pull.
I would get around 10-20 of knock counts in a 30minutes stop and go traffic drive. No WOT, RPM mostly stay below 2000rpm. And also most of the count are in cylinder 3.
At times i will get 0 knock count on the same distance same pattern of drive and times i would get around 10 knock count.
It happens randomly. This morning i took a highway drive road trip, with mostly speed below 110km/h and below 2000rpm. Here is what i get after 2 hours of drive:

kcount 1 = 2
kcount 2 = 5
kcount 3 = 14
kcount 4 = 0

I've tried few different brand of RON97 fuel and the knock counts showed are random. I also tried driving with ECON mode all the way but still the same, randomly a few knock count and sometime 0 knock count. Knock control stay steadily at 54.69%.
Should i be worried on these knock counts?
Appreciate if hondata / spunkster could help to answer.
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Hondata
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by Hondata »

The knock control is more important that knock count.

Make datalogs and then look at points where the knock control increases. If there is one spot where knock control consistently increases then lower the knock ignition limit in that area.
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Emount91
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by Emount91 »

I was getting pretty decent knock counts running the 6PSI tune with no adjustments made to it.

Between 12 and 19 knock counts over 50 minutes of driving, 95% of which were being recorded in the same range on the ignition table. Knock control was responding to every single one of them, sometimes getting as high as 70% and staying high longer the more counts I got.

I have since pulled -1.5 degrees of ignition from the 0/2250 - 3/3000 range and knock count went WAY down. 2-3 over 50 minutes now, and those 2-3 are in very random parts of the ignition table, not in this same range.

The highlighted cells below are the ones I adjusted by -1.5 degrees. I blended a little bit with additional -0.5 degree pulls from the 0/2250 thru 0/3000 cells to smooth it out.
pulledignitiontable.jpg
pulledignitiontable.jpg (241.69 KiB) Viewed 3800 times
Here is a screenshot of a most recent datalog showing only 2 knock counts over 51:00 minutes of driving. Datalog itself is too big to post. But see? Knock Control still responded to even those 2 counts by jumping up to ~65%. I don't want to go too crazy with pulling more ignition because you can defeinitely feel a power difference.
noknockdatalog.jpg
noknockdatalog.jpg (292.85 KiB) Viewed 3800 times
brandonckc
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by brandonckc »

Hondata wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:30 am The knock control is more important that knock count.

Make datalogs and then look at points where the knock control increases. If there is one spot where knock control consistently increases then lower the knock ignition limit in that area.
Are these knock count the REAL knock happening in the cylinder?
brandonckc
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by brandonckc »

Hondata wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:30 am The knock control is more important that knock count.

Make datalogs and then look at points where the knock control increases. If there is one spot where knock control consistently increases then lower the knock ignition limit in that area.
Attached datalog of 40minutes mix driving
Appreciate if could help explain why there is knock count happening at low rpm.
Attachments
datalog40minsdrive 18sept.fpdl
(6.65 MiB) Downloaded 75 times
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Hondata
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by Hondata »

Don't concentrate on the knock count; look at where the knock control increases. In any case a knock count of 13 in 40 minutes is normal.

Also look at the overall knock control value and what fuel you are using. From the datalog the knock control is low (around 55%) and increases mainly at 18:30 under full load and then a little at 21:30 also at full load. The knock control drops again to 55% under normal driving.

So you could decrease ignition at the 240 kPa level but it is not critical.
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brandonckc
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by brandonckc »

Thanks for the prompt reply.
Here is another datalog i just did after 30minutes of drive with Techron Fuel Injector Cleaner.
Noticed the knock control and knock count are much higher compare to previous datalog. And also most of the "knock" happen around 1500rpm.
Attachments
datalog 30mins with InjectorCleaner night 18sept.fpdl
(5.13 MiB) Downloaded 55 times
brandonckc
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by brandonckc »

Hondata wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:47 am Don't concentrate on the knock count; look at where the knock control increases. In any case a knock count of 13 in 40 minutes is normal.

Also look at the overall knock control value and what fuel you are using. From the datalog the knock control is low (around 55%) and increases mainly at 18:30 under full load and then a little at 21:30 also at full load. The knock control drops again to 55% under normal driving.

So you could decrease ignition at the 240 kPa level but it is not critical.
What is the knock count and knock control value to be consider normal? I'm using RON97 fuel. Attached above another datalog with Techron fuel injector cleaner in the tank. Noticed the knock count and knock control is much higher.
brandonckc
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Knock Count & Knock Control

Post by brandonckc »

Can somebody help me take a look on my datalog of 40minutes of drive.
I've look around forums and many said that we should ignore the knock count value and focus on knock control instead.
But the knock count i've encounted still bothering me. 50k km now and i plan to keep this car for a long time, maybe 3 more years.
Anyone encounter this low rpm knock count with their civic x 1.5T CVT with tuned?
What is the knock count value and knock control percentage to be consider normal on a 40minutes commute?
Attachments
datalog0003.rar
(6.17 MiB) Downloaded 75 times
Emount91
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Re: Knock Count & Knock Control

Post by Emount91 »

brandonckc wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:13 am Can somebody help me take a look on my datalog of 40minutes of drive.
I've look around forums and many said that we should ignore the knock count value and focus on knock control instead.
But the knock count i've encounted still bothering me. 50k km now and i plan to keep this car for a long time, maybe 3 more years.
Anyone encounter this low rpm knock count with their civic x 1.5T CVT with tuned?
What is the knock count value and knock control percentage to be consider normal on a 40minutes commute?
I was getting around 20-25 knock counts over an hour with knock control responding to them sometimes above 70%, until I did some studying of datalogs and pulled timing out of the areas it was happening in.

Now i get 0-3 per hour at most with knock control only responding up to 60% max. Still working on pulling more timing in places I see knocks happening consistently. If it's a one-off knock in a random spot on the table I just let knock control do it's thing.
janemar
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by janemar »

Sorry for bringing up an old thread. I've noticed we are on the same both after updating to the latest FP version(3.5.x.) Similar issue wherein k.control will bump up on the 1300rpm area during light load on our 1.5T bonestock CVT. Haven't notice that on my previous FP version 2.8.x.

I noticed you live in a cold environment compared to mine, since I normally get 50-65c IAT2 and 85-100c ECT. -So I'm ruling out AMBIENT temp as a factor. I already tried refilling on 2 different gas station of same 100RON gas, so ruling out bad gas as well. On a side note, it's normal for the 1.5t ecus for k.control to rise between 5200-5000rpm. 4 years later, both hondata and K.tuner and other reputable tuners still can't explain this background timing reduction.

What I did is to kill A LOT timing under knock ignition limit table on 1300-2000rpm area until I remove the k.control/k.count bump. Fixed my issue now.

Some theory as this is why happening.

1. Damage to engine(minor boost leak, dying turbo, bent valve, dying knock sensor, spark plug, etc..)
2. K.control sensitivity calibration. Though Hondata already explained that they didn't touch anything k.control related since version 2.8.x
3. Dying CVT, tranny is lugging the engine at those rpms.

I'm attaching my before and after log for your reference and furture reference of whoever will experience this same issue with there 1.5T CVT
Attachments
after(fixed).fpdl
(4.61 MiB) Downloaded 34 times
before(1300rpm-issue).fpdl
(4.8 MiB) Downloaded 26 times
janemar
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Re: Part Throttle Knock Count HONDATA FLASHPRO

Post by janemar »

So, after a few test drive and datalog. Here is my conclusion.

There really seems to be a fake knock happening at around 1300rpm on the 1.5T cvt which makes the k.control and k.count bump. I noticed it even during deccel, heavy vacuum, 0 %TP. and no load on engine. You can see the k.control jump. I suggest don't change the knock ignition limit in these area since you'll just suffer from drivability and MPG problems. Stick with the stock cal.

Now, for the 5200rpm onwards k.control rise. I've tried running low boost and low timing on these area just to stop it from rising. As low as 3psi and -3 ignition all the way to redline. Still experienced it. This is on a 100RON, e10 gas.

Now, since it does it on both low and the high boost. I just stick with my high boost and high ignition timing map and let k.contol do its thing and I get the power that I need. Win-win.

The only option is for hondata to give us the knock sensor sensitivity adjustment table for us 1.5T CVT users so we can kill the force rise. Logic dictates, if they gave us the option to tune the CVT Torque table that can potentially destroy our tranny, why not this knock sensitivity table? There's a reason why we buy flash tools and dont want to retain to stock.
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