+6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Civic 2016+ 1.5 Turbo
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hifi
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+6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Hey Folks,

Just received my FP a couple days ago, works great. As intended, appreciate the data logging features.

My vehicle info: 2020 Civic Sport Touring Hatchback 1.5T with ~4000 miles (CVT)

First off, loaded the +6 (non-carb) basemap, with the Boost category "Optimized Turbo Response" and the Throttle category "Improved response" checked.

I have been modifying the torque table very moderately (i.e. from the 250-280 max range) and that is it.

So questions: regardless of the torque setting (i.e. 250 vs up to 280 max) there is a slight "hic-up" or subtle "jerk" when under full acceleration, and these are not occurring during shift points. It would seem (attaching the datalog for the latest run) with Knock control well under 60%, there is some retardation occurring that I can actually feel under acceleration. Its just not smooth. Now granted, this is VERY subtle, but I'm correlating this to the "blips" as the ECU is making corrections on the fly.

I've driven this way for 40-50 miles, so the ECU should have everything sorted out...and it does run very well, feels much more responsive, and the mid-range torque is very appealing! But is there any way at all to smooth out those subtle "surge" episodes under WOT acceleration? Otherwise, great product, very pleased with the software/hardware and overall capability.

One last thing I'd like to squeeze in so I don't run a separate thread, but for the "advanced graph" (and I've tried right clicking etc.) how do you adjust the axis scaling? My FlashPro manager default doesn't seem to auto scale, and I can't seem to find the settings.

Thank you and best regards,

Ryan
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hifi
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Hey all,

So (as this is a typical occurrence) with a bit more patience and time, I may have worked this one out.

*drum roll*

I had the A/C on ;) So I was playing around, turned off VSA (no difference, subtle surge still existed).

From what I can tell, its either the ECU "protecting" the compressor under WOT or (and its challenging to tell as I don't believe this parameter is data-logged) its the compressor kicking in while accelerating.

That said, the CVT's are a bit "wonky" (I've had a Prius for 10 years too) and regardless of claims of smoother acceleration etc, it has not always been my experience.

Has anyone else realized the "surge" (and again, its very marginal, you have to be watching the tach and "feeling" the vehicle's application of torque while accelerating to note this) it definitely feels to me as if the car is "retarding" the acceleration at certain points, most likely (in my case here) to protect the A/C compressor at higher RPM. It almost feels like its "checking" to ensure its fine and then allowing to rev, then checking again, allowing more rev. It is VERY annoying to say the least, but again this is mitigated by simply switching off the climate control system.

Would be good to get some confirmation from the community here on their experience with this as well.

Thanks, and B/R,

Ryan
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hifi
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

***Oh, and if someone can point to where we can modify the axis settings on the graphs, that would be most appreciated! I guess I can throw the data into Excel or something, but what's the fun in that?

Thanks!

Ryan
yos025
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by yos025 »

Hi there,
I have same vehicle as you(2500 miles) . I am running the 6 psi mishimoto SRI boost and throttle response mod. I have adjusted the AFM sensor table so fuel trims are good and adjusted boost levels so boost is more smooth than the 6 psi map.
I am not expert, I have done lots of reading here since I got my flashpro June 20th. At this point my car is running great and like the smoother acceleration I created adjusting the boost to be more of a curve to the peak instead of those high boost at 1700 and 2500 rpms the base map comes with.

The only thing I can tell you. And everyone here talks about and warn. CVT transmitions should never be over 250 torque. You are running the risk of damaging the CVT over 250.
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hifi
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Hi Yos! Thank you for the reply. Sounds like a nice setup there. I have not personally made any modifications to my vehicle other than the tune here.

That said, perhaps I'm taking on a bit of risk, but if you see here: viewtopic.php?p=106112#p106112 confirming the torque table to +/- 5nm per the dyno output, we are looking at ~184ft/lbs as the "limit".

The +6 cal is capable of pushing around ~300nm per the Hondata dyno here on the CVT: https://www.hondata.com/flashpro/flashpro-2016-civic (Dyno tab of course and CVT +6)

That said, they have limited their base map +6 tune intentionally for (what anyone could assume) "safety" (or CYA as I would appropriately call it) to that ~184ft/lbs, thus you are probably only getting a couple pounds of boost over stock, and not anywhere near the +6...In fact, I'm betting your butt dyno will tell you the +3 is just as powerful ;) (if one leaves the torque table limited to 250nm, there is no doubt the +3 boost will hit that...there are plenty of data online proving (dyno) as much)

Taking risk is what tuning is all about (at least from my perspective) and I would assume any responsibility to rebuild or replace my transmission due to my negligence.

That said, I don't plan to power brake or go on extended runs that may cause overheating issues. I feel like the range I'm playing in is fairly risk adverse, but then again, that is up to the individual to decide.

To add to this, after a bit of google research (though to be honest, they list different part numbers due to various mounting schemes) it would appear the same drive train is used for the Civic, Accord and CRV (and the HRV!) that utilize the 1.5t/CVT combo...it makes sense too as Honda does save money when they can use the same combo for multiple vehicle models. Note the difference in not only advertised torque (i.e. 192ft/lbs in the Accord) but the overall vehicle weight! (CRV is around 3,576 lbs, Accord 3,428 lbs, and civic 2,762 to 3,009 lbs, I believe my sport touring door sticker shows just under 3000 lbs)

So that would indicate at least a bit of safe margin you have to play with the CVT torque. 280nm (+/- 5nm per Hondata's own words at the link above) would put my limiter at ~206.5 ft/lbs +/-3.5 ft/lbs) which is a margin I'm personally comfortable dealing with.

There are certainly a lot more individuals out there pushing the CVT a lot harder than that without failure. In fact, it is challenging to find a legit failure (other than the guys out there smoking the tires with the parking brake locked on which (again in my opinion) is just plain foolish)

Best regards!

Ryan
arnoldod
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by arnoldod »

This is taken from Hondata online help: "The torque limiter functions by limiting power output via closing throttle, lowering bp-command, or altering the ignition timing or a combination of all the above."

You don't need to change anything with +6 PSI calibration. I set my peak TCMPR at 2.400 bar and I don't need to increase my torque limiter because all indicator showed that none of the related tables (TCMPR, Tpedal, Tplate, BP CMD, Ignition timing) are limited by torque limiter.
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hifi
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Hi Arnoldod! Thank you for the reply.

So when you were performing the dyno tune here: viewtopic.php?p=106098#p106098

You do not believe that it was the torque limiter that correlated with the actual dyno output? I have seen a couple other threads with dyno results showing the correlation between actual output (in nm and ft/lbs) with only torque table adjustments. That would seem to indicate (thus asking you for clarification on your dyno testing) the torque table is indeed the limiting factor.

Much appreciated! And thank you for sharing your experiences!
arnoldod
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by arnoldod »

hifi wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:21 am Hi Arnoldod! Thank you for the reply.

So when you were performing the dyno tune here: viewtopic.php?p=106098#p106098

You do not believe that it was the torque limiter that correlated with the actual dyno output? I have seen a couple other threads with dyno results showing the correlation between actual output (in nm and ft/lbs) with only torque table adjustments. That would seem to indicate (thus asking you for clarification on your dyno testing) the torque table is indeed the limiting factor.

Much appreciated! And thank you for sharing your experiences!
I refined my tune and did a dyno again. Peak torque reached 303 Nm at 4,500 RPM. The only tables that I changed were Knock Ignition Limit, and tuned TCMP with peak TCMP at 2.4.

I checked Hondata online help and consulted in this forum. I found out torque limiter not only control wastegate opening but also balancing TCMPR, and ignition. The 250 Nm in torque limiter table has no correlation with dyno result. Thus, is a limiting factor.

I once tried to set torque limiter from 4,000 RPM to 5,500 RPM blending 260 and 300 nm torque in torque limiter. Peak boost set in TCMPR table was 2.4. I did a couple of WOT pull and found boost went beyond TCMPR (overboost).

I would like to think Torque Limiter as limiting factor to help users protect their engine and CVT trans from blowing up, and also help to prevent boost creep.
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Hi Arnoldod!

Again, thank you for your reply. As this is getting off topic from this thread, I have started a specific thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23583

I appreciate that you may be seeing differences in torque output by modifying different tables. What I am thinking is going on here (i.e. if you really do have the torque table limit to say, 250nm across the board) if you are able to hit >300nm? That torque table is doing absolutely nothing for you in terms of protecting your CVT. The other parameters you have overwritten maybe are capable of overriding or bypassing the torque limit.

Otherwise, what would the entire purpose of a torque table limited to 250nm, but yet allowing you to achieve >300nm real-world? That's frankly not even close to protecting you.What does the torque table indicate then? What is it correlating to? That is >37ft/lbs delta between the table (and whatever formula the ECU is using to calculate that limit) So again, what is it even limiting?

I do feel like that needs to be answered. Hopefully in the new thread.

Ryan
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Hey Folks,

So I wanted to get back to this topic. And @Hondata, please help me in identifying root cause, as you definitely have the experience for this.

Using the +6 calibration for 91 octane (I'm running 93) and the default 250nm torque table, with only "increased throttle response" and "optimized turbo" checked, this is what is occurring.

I've verified it doesn't matter if the A/C is on or not. And, this goes away 100% when running the stock tune, so it is ONLY occurring with the +6 Hondata Tune. I have not tried without the additional throttle/turbo options unchecked above.

Again, the issue is: under WOT acceleration, there is surging (multiple points above 3000rpm) I've captured the issue here. (Attached Datalog)

So you're under full WOT, and it hits 3500 hic-ups, then 4250, hiccups...just jerk, jerk, jerk and gone...its just not linear.

Is the ECU to backing off the TPlate% and open the waste gate 100% causing this surge? And again, it happens quick...its a fraction of a sec but it is definitely noticeable under full throttle and "jerky" as it quickly releases and applies full power. Again, at these instances you can see I still have the TPedal depressed all the way...

The acceleration isn't smooth. And now that I perceive it, its very annoying. What can I do to tweak this tune to eliminate the above conditions? Again, going back to stock and I have smooth, linear acceleration. (*quick note, if I raise the torque limit, this gets more exaggerated, but its still occurring under the +6 hondata basemap, and I haven't ever gone above 280nm ever for any part of the tune) Could it be the optimized turbo spoolup/response causing issues? Throttle response?

Thank you!

Ryan
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

*Just tried the +6 Base Cal without the boost (faster spool up) enabled. The only option left on is the throttle sensitivity.

*sigh* this is NOT a smooth calibration under WOT which is really where the fun is at.

Again, the stock cal is smooth as butter under WOT acceleration. The +6 basemap Cal from Hondata is "vroom...vrooooom....vrooooooom" where the dots are the pause/stutter/hesitation/surging (or whatever other synonym you'd wish to call it), and this is not CVT shifting. I tried up and downhill to see if it is a loading issue with the CVT...it did the same exact thing downhill!

The +6 (under all conditions I've tried, aside from removing the throttle sensitivity, which I may try tomorrow (as my NVM in my ECU is getting exercised probably a lot further than intended in terms of a r/w life-cycle) ;)

@Hondata Tech/Customer Support. Just point me in the right direction here. I'll record a datalog for you, try whatever recommendations. But this is actually a bit irritating to drive like this unfortunately.

What I do like is the responsiveness in the throttle it gives, and of course you can feel the extra torque as it pulls and throughout the boost. However it is the poor application of torque which is annoying.

User community, what have your experiences been? And if you haven't noticed it, try WOT acceleration (within legal limits of course) between both +6 and Stock modes. I think you'll see the issue I'm describing, just watch your tach needle after it gets into boost. I'm assuming this has something to do with the CVT and torque converter application (which I do understand is controlled by its own unit), but surely there are ways to work with this in the tune? It shouldn't be just "lets give it a little extra go juice at the expense of smooth acceleration" I refuse to buy that argument (even though I bought this tuner).

Thank you,

Ryan
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by Spunkster »

IF you use the unmodified +6psi calibration does the issue go away?
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Spunkster wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:07 pm IF you use the unmodified +6psi calibration does the issue go away?
Hi Spunkster, appreciate the response.

I'll do just that. Question though, does it matter if I use the "unmodified" +6 non-CARB or CARB? I'll try the former without any additional options checked off and let you know. I believe just by looking through each of these, it should be identical.

Thanks,

Ryan
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

Spunkster wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:07 pm IF you use the unmodified +6psi calibration does the issue go away?
Hi Spunkster,

Just got back from two runs to help verify and perhaps clarify.
So with just the +6 basemap (non-carb) and no changes whatsoever, it still "jerks" under full WOT (AND I tested partial throttle and it still does it), acceleration. Attached is the datalog from that run. Since I have no apparent access to the raw datalog file, its hard with the graphing interpolation to find those exact milliseconds when the "hicupping" occurs. Perhaps you have the software to look at that in closer detail.

Two other datapoints for you: 1) ran in the "eco" mode which should simulate full stock settings, and the acceleration under WOT is very smooth. A/C on/off doesn't matter. I ran the +6 under both conditions too. 2) I selected the turbo (increased spool/response) and throttle (increased sensitivity/response) with the "stock" basemap for the 2020 Civic Touring Hatch and it worked just fine with the stock tune.

So the main issue is just with +6, regardless of the options selected (I've only tried the two aforementioned selections though that are probably very common to accompany this tune)

Question: Is it possible Honda changed something with this ECU/2020 model year that doesn't play well with the tried and true tune? (CVT adjustments Honda made?) Again, its VERY quick, but that tells me the ECU is attempting to adjust something "on the fly" during acceleration...it just hesitates (you can see the rpm needle jerk) at various points (seems like above 3-4K RPM and approximately 3 minor "jerks". So you can definitely feel the power/torque, but it is far from smooth.

Other notes:
I definitely noticed the decreased throttle response when removing that option. So kudos to you all for that one! Love it. Now if we can just figure out how to smooth out the acceleration profile, that will be AWESOME.

Appreciate the support.

Ryan
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Re: +6 Base Cal 1.5T CVT Subtle "surging" while under acceleration

Post by hifi »

*Another quick sidenote, it has been VERY hot where I'm located here in central texas, you can probably tell from the IAT/ECT readings...but that said, Knock control etc. seem to be very good from my limited perspective. I think I only recorded one "knock" on #2 cylinder as well, and for this particular car/engine, that is the only cylinder that shows knocks with the various tunes. Again, 2020 model, air temp around 100F (range of 85-102F temp when running any of these) but that shouldn't be an issue. The ECU is tweaking something with this tune...I've ran 200 miles or so with various +6 modes...same issue.
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