ignition timing in log don't match the tables

K-Series Programmable ECU installation questions / support issues
eTiLiKo
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:08 am

ignition timing in log don't match the tables

Post by eTiLiKo »

K-manager 1.2.3.5
PND-A08 ECU
PRB calibration

This problem is more visible from 4400 to VTEC,and from 6000 to rev limit.
I attach a calibration and a datalog for sample [PRA original setting in PRB calibration].
Attachments
PRB_PRA.kal
(47.03 KiB) Downloaded 173 times
PRB_PRA 1_1.kdl
(215.4 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
eTiLiKo
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:08 am

Post by eTiLiKo »

Also a friend of mine have discovered the same problem on a PRA ECU with PRA cal.
Is it a "characteristic" of Kpro?
User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 10434
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Post by Hondata »

The ECU has many compensations to ignition timing, so the datalogged timing often will not match the calibration.
Hondata
eTiLiKo
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:08 am

Post by eTiLiKo »

All the WOT datalog that i have show this retard.From a IAT of 30 to 45?C and from an ECT of 75 to 90?C.
This can be a problem for reliability,because if I tune the ignition with this retard,if it at a certain condition disappear the engine can have serious damage.
Mr Aryan
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 11:03 am
Contact:

Post by Mr Aryan »

i've noticed that in my PRA ecu last month, but did not bother asking cause i just thought of changing to PRB ecu..
Razathorn
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:17 am
Location: Lenexa, Kansas, USA

Post by Razathorn »

I'm really concerned about this as well as I've got a few cars scheduled to be tuned, not to mention my own with different water/methanol concentrations. I was out on the hottest day of the year this weekend and I was seeing intake temps of 150+ and coolant temps hanging in the high 190s low 200s but my ignition values were dead on with what the map called for, so I don't know what to think about what folks are seeing.

Wayne
2003 black RSX type-s / jrsc @ 12psi / methanol injection / aftercooled
magnEsium
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:56 pm
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by magnEsium »

Hondata wrote:The ECU has many compensations to ignition timing, so the datalogged timing often will not match the calibration.
Any chance that K-Pro can one day have the ignition compensation adjustment in parameters like S300 does?
magnEsium Tuning
http://www.magtuning.com
User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 10434
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Post by Hondata »

There are about 40 ignition compensation tables, with many only used under certain cirumstances. If there is significant compensation it is usually from a parameter being well outside normal values - eg people who use a lower temperature thermostat.
Hondata
roland
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:55 pm

Post by roland »

Hondata wrote:There are about 40 ignition compensation tables, with many only used under certain cirumstances. If there is significant compensation it is usually from a parameter being well outside normal values - eg people who use a lower temperature thermostat.
What other parameters can cause it? My ignition is running about 3 degrees lower than what is in the tables and I would really like to figure that out. Datalog and calibration here:

http://hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8336
User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 10434
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Post by Hondata »

Water temperature 169F and air temperature 105F are at least part of the cause. You also need to change the maximum short term trim value to something higher than 0%.
Hondata
roland
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:55 pm

Post by roland »

Hondata wrote:Water temperature 169F and air temperature 105F are at least part of the cause.
Thanks for the info. I thought that water temperature was pretty normal though.

Any clue as to why I would lose 3 deg timing with these temps while Razathorn/Wayne is getting full timing at 190-200 deg coolant and 150 air temp? His car is an 2003 while mine is a 2006, could the modifications to the ECU for 05+ K-pro have anything to do with it?

Also, I read in another thread about the [IATRetardHigh] and [IATRetardLow] tables that are in the calibration file, but my IATRetardHigh values are all set to 0. Would it be wise to zero out IATRetardLow?
Hondata wrote:You also need to change the maximum short term trim value to something higher than 0%.
This was oringally an open loop tune for running leaner cruise at part throttle. I was just experimenting with closed loop and 0% s.trim. I will be changing it back to straight open loop. But what effect does a 0% max s.trim have on the ignition? Or is it just bad to do in general?
Razathorn
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:17 am
Location: Lenexa, Kansas, USA

Post by Razathorn »

roland wrote:
Hondata wrote:Water temperature 169F and air temperature 105F are at least part of the cause.
Thanks for the info. I thought that water temperature was pretty normal though.

Any clue as to why I would lose 3 deg timing with these temps while Razathorn/Wayne is getting full timing at 190-200 deg coolant and 150 air temp?
Yeah, I saw no ignition retard. It's worth noting that after running a few pulls with water/meth, my intake temps were in the 120 range on average, but still the values with 120 iat and higher than normal coolant temps were still spot on for the map. It's worth noting that I had recently completely power reset the ecu from doing lots of work on the car.

I'm concerned that hunting for power on the dyno will result in a car being tuned with 3-4 degrees more ignition in the map than it should have and then the ecu adding it back one day and popping the motor.
2003 black RSX type-s / jrsc @ 12psi / methanol injection / aftercooled
uncledan
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:21 am
Location: cleveland, ohio

Post by uncledan »

Along with the ignition values, if you look at cam and camcmd you will see camcmd running 1 degree below the maps also. That might not sound like much, but if the table calls for let's say 25 degrees, and cam cmd is 24 degrees wouldn't that put you in the 20 degree table instead of the 30 degree table?

uncledan
Razathorn
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:17 am
Location: Lenexa, Kansas, USA

Post by Razathorn »

Another thing I noticed is that the sensors windows shows 26 degrees while the display window shows 27 while looking at a point in the datalog. Looks like a difference in rounding between the two displays.
2003 black RSX type-s / jrsc @ 12psi / methanol injection / aftercooled
magnEsium
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:56 pm
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by magnEsium »

Bump

Currently tuning someone, had ignition on the high cam set for 30 degrees but in the datalog it is running roughly 25 degrees timing


During datalog, IATs were 130, ECT 192

I open the kal in wordpad and find ignition retard -5 degrees on LOW CAM for 130 IAT and 0 for High Cam at 130 IAT -- Although the low cam is reading proper ignition

[IATRetardLow]
; IAT ?F,Retard
0=86.196875,0
1=130.240625,5.25
2=175.4,10.75

[IATRetardHigh]
; IAT ?F,Retard
0=86.196875,0
1=130.240625,0
2=175.4,0

Why am I seeing ass backwards results here?
magnEsium Tuning
http://www.magtuning.com
Locked