Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2006-2011 Americas Civic Si
09SiCivic
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by 09SiCivic »

I bought my new flash pro this week, installed it and uploaded the map that is labeled as Civic-Si-RRB-2 ( completely stock, tuned). I logged a short trip and a pull. I noticed there was knock. All my car has is a K&N filter, everything else is stock. Im not sure if its because of the ignition tables or what, but i tried also loading the "Factory settings" calibration, and the Injen SRI one. All of those show knock as well. I will upload the map that i used and the logs from the run. Has anyone had this experience? any input or ideas would be appreciated. Its an 09 Civic Si, stock everything except K&N filter.
After flash calibration.fpdl
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Civic-SI-RRB-2-Tuned.fpcal
(21.92 KiB) Downloaded 188 times
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

All of your knock is one area of the 30* cam angle map so it should be an easy fix. You actually had 4 before you hit record on the datalog, so I don't know where those occurred. What octane fuel are you running?

There are other areas of the tune that could use some touching up as well. It is a little rich under wide open throttle. Let me know if you want to work on that kind of stuff.

I will attach a quick revision with ignition removed for the knock to try in the mean time. Take it for a drive and we'll see if the knock is removed.

Civic-SI-RRB-2-Tuned.EFICU.Rev01.fpcal
(21.94 KiB) Downloaded 222 times
09SiCivic
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by 09SiCivic »

Thanks for that. I am using 93 Octane and i'm at sea level. I dont know for sure, but i believe the 4 were occurring the lower RPM ranges, during normal driving condition. I will have to go for a drive and log more. I am now using a map my brother made for me using speed density, and we are tuning that. But i found it weird that a map that was supplied was knocking because im sure a lot of people use that when they first get Flash Pro. I also had a huge issue when i switched that stock map to speed density. It ran very lean. I mean 17+:1 at WOT, in Vtec.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

Yeah the basemaps really are just a starting point in most cases to get you in the ballpark. All of them should be adjusted per vehicle.

If you switch a MAF tune to speed density it will run lean. I don't believe the MAP fueling tables are tuned per modifications described in the title of the tune because they are designed to be MAF based. So, when you switch a MAF tune to speed density, the MAP fuel tables are nowhere near optimized. The main thing is you realized the issue and addressed it which is good. I am working with a guy in Canada right now who had a similar issue of running in the 17 ish AFR's with a similar basemap.

If you and your brother need any help with your tune, or would like me to look over datalogs for you just let me know. I'd be happy to help. I don't know your brothers familiarity with tuning, just throwing it out there if you guys want some help or advice let me know.
09SiCivic
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by 09SiCivic »

I really appreciate you taking the time to help out. Yeah, by brother is a lot more knowledgeable and familiar with tuning than I am, i just started playing with the software this week. He's been doing it for over a year, just playing around and tuning his K24 Mini cooper. So he made the map for me and so far its pretty spot on. Fuel is good so far. Were just going to fine tune it slowly, going to adjust the timing maps because i feel the car isnt making the power it used to have at the higher RPM ranges. This is most likely because we reduced the timing so that it wouldnt knock, and we can slowly increase to make the power. Ill send a map and a log once we play with it a bit more.
Again, thank you.
EFICU
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

Sounds good. You’re welcome.
Kr4nG
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:25 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by Kr4nG »

I have been adjusting his tune after I made him a map based map. I have a few questions concerning flashmanager. Since im used to the kmanager software, I found a section that is either missing or not present in the flashmanger. (Target air/fuel) And that is the table that has the desired air/fuel ratio based on a table. Screenshot below is from the kmanager. Does this theory still apply to flashpro? Is this table hidden? I have been adjusting his map based on lamda overlay and wanted to confirm that the software is getting its lookup from a table like this.

As far as ignition goes, I feel like the k20z3 engine is very prone to knock vs the k24. How do you feel about that? Is the sensor different then the k20a2 senor? On stock motor what are some of the ignition degrees you guys might be running in WOT. What about cruising degrees?
Attachments
Screen Shot 2020-04-02 at 8.07.23 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-04-02 at 8.07.23 PM.png (307.45 KiB) Viewed 6856 times
EFICU
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

Yeah the Target air/fuel table isn't in Flahspro. You will want to focus on the WOT lambda adjustment high and low. Make sure the WOT value is 12.46 so that it will engage open loop fueling under WOT. Anything over that and it may not enter WOT. Then use your overlay in the fueling tables to adjust WOT fueling and part throttle fueling. Are you guys going to tune each cam angle individually or do a blended tune? Tuning each cam angle will really help you build everything out and decide on the cam angle mapping since you don't have a dyno.

Every car is different, I have seen some very picky k24s, and k20s that seem to have no issues with ignition. Not sure if the sensors are different, but the knock sensitivity tables can be different from Honda which makes them less likely or more likely to show knock depending on the application.

Let me know if you guys plan to tune each cam angle individually or what the plan is, then maybe I can work with you guys to clean it up. I have a ton of 8th gen files with good ignition maps to start on.
Kr4nG
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Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:25 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by Kr4nG »

12.4 at WOT is that too rich? my impression was to get to the values shown above.
EFICU
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

Kr4nG wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:33 pm 12.4 at WOT is that too rich? my impression was to get to the values shown above.
12.4 is a touch rich yes. Ideally on 8th gens you want to be in the 12.8-13.0 range depending on the setup. Make sure you're using AF corrected for your WOT fueling as well. Hondata did a great job setting that up for us. It's a lot more accurate than the simple AFR gauge.You'll have to go into setting to change that so the overlay uses it. Only works on 8th gen Si's, but it works great.

For the WOT lambda table, you can set it up simple like this below. Also turn off boost columns in your Flashpro manager and it will make your life a lot easier.
Attachments
WOT Lambda sample small.jpg
WOT Lambda sample small.jpg (130.98 KiB) Viewed 6845 times
EFICU
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Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

I can send you a basemap to start on if you want. I just need to know if you plan to tune each cam angle individually or use a completed file and make simple changes to it.
Kr4nG
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:25 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by Kr4nG »

I understand that the boost tables dont need to be there. That screenshot is from kmanager. The screenshot was just to ask if the theory still applied here.

question about the WOT tables. Are these table active even though we are using the MAP based calibration? How does this table apply here? Does it switch between our fuel tables and the WOT tables? or are these the target tables?

I have not tuned individual map per cam angle. Which I know I should, but due to the circumstances I have been adjusting his tables accordingly. Also been using the stock cam maps per hondata. First objective was to not have the engine knock and I feel like we have accomplished that so far.

Im curious on how your map is setup and would like to compare to ours. Im not a pro in anyway so Im sure I have mistakes in the calibration. Feel free to look over the parameters/calibration tab and see if something might be off there as well. Let me know what you think about the fuel tables as well. Ill attach the latest file we got.
Attachments
Kr4nG civic map.fpcal
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EFICU
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Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

So the WOT lambda tables essentially determines when the car enters and exits open loop operation for WOT fueling. They are always active to determine close loop and open loop operation. If you use values above 12.50 in the WOT table, the ECU may stay in closed loop and never command proper WOT fueling which will cause the car to run lean under WOT. You want to go in and setup the WOT determination tables like I pictured a few post ago so that it will enter open loop and command the proper fueling when it sees the WOT conditions. It doesn't mean you want to or have to hit a 12.46 afr, it just tells the ECU to command WOT fueling that you then tune in the MAP tables. Then you go in and datalog it to make the necessary changes to hit 12.8 or whatever you determine you want to run. In looking at your file, under your WOT lambada low and high tables, in the places where you have “12.8” in those tables, the ECYU can actually kick itself out of WOT fueling and go way lean there. Most troubling area would be above 8000rpms where in your file the ECU can kick itself out because you have values above 12.5. Let me know what questions you have on this. Below is the link to Hondata's explanation, notice the important note under the WOT lambda box.

https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/i ... meters.htm

Gotcha. Yeah tuning per cam angle is really easy once you get the hang of it, and it actually makes thing a little quicker IMO. Start with the 0* cam, build it out, then copy and paste both high and low 0* maps into the 15*, then keep doing that to the 30*, 40*, 45*. Once you have them built out you can see the fuel tables and determine the cam angle mapping pretty easy without a dyno. Don't worry, I have cleaned up tunes from supposed professionals who put the same cam angle fueling in every cam angle map.

The fuel tables will need some changes, mostly in the high cam. The fuel tables generally follow like a torque curve on a dyno graph as you transition from the 0*, to the 15*, etc. Have you guys made a datalog you can post to look over all of the fueling and trims?

There are a lot of other things to change like MAP pressures for vtec and WOT fueling. You can also make a lot of changes to the throttle pedal map to make it feel a little more connected as well. From the factory, the pedal on 8th gens always felt a little disconnected in my experience. With some tweaks, you can make it feel better.
09SiCivic
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by 09SiCivic »

Thanks for the replies. So yesterday, i uploaded this map and went for a quick drive. The car drives much better but im still seeing some knock in the lower RPM range. My brother didnt get a chance to review the logs yet to make those adjustments. But I'm attaching the map and the two logs i created during my short drive. LMK what adjustments we can make.
Pauls Civic rev6.2.fpcal
(22.37 KiB) Downloaded 159 times
Rev6.2 run 2 with knock.fpdl
(128.21 KiB) Downloaded 172 times
Rev6.2 run 1 no knock.fpdl
(81.08 KiB) Downloaded 172 times
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: Getting Knock on a calibration which came with FLashPro Manager

Post by EFICU »

So the one area of knock you had in the datalog with knock is from going almost wide open throttle in 5th gear at 50mph. This causes an extreme load on the engine which causes it to use portions of the ignition tables at a slow speed and a lot of throttle. This will cause knock in most cases, unless you take a bunch of timing out of it down low. I would recommend changing your driving style a little bit, I don't know if 80% throttle in 5th gear at 50 mph is normal for you or this was just a random event, but I would recommend changing that style driving if possible. Unless you're really on it close to 100mph, wide open throttle in 5th gear should be a rare case, even on the highway and need to pass or speed up usually getting into 4th will be the best gear. Always try to keep the revs up on these cars, with such low torque numbers, they need to be wound up to move. Just keep it in mind, not being a jerk, just saying that driving scenario will cause knock events even with properly tuned ignition.

Overall it looks okay. I see your brother didn't make many changes to the map for you. The WOT tables are still the same, so the car isn't entering open loop for WOT fueling like it should and some other things. No problem, I know he's learning. Not trying to sound like a jerk at all again, just trying to help.

I will attach a calibration from a completely stock car I tuned that turned out great. Take this one for a twenty minute drive and datalog the drive. When you make your wide open throttle pulls (WOT) while driving, make sure you get the pedal to the floor. On a lot of your pulls you are modulating from 100% to 60% and back up. Try to keep it to the floor. But take this one for a drive and see what you think.
Complete Stock Basemap.fpcal
(21.78 KiB) Downloaded 195 times
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