2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2006-2011 Americas Civic Si
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

I get what you are saying about the sensor. Maybe if someone was just driving a beater car they could possibly get away with running a cheap sensor but once a person starts tuning and putting money into performance it really is not worth it to cheap out on parts that can be considered critical to the operation/performance.

I feel that patience is important when learning and adjusting values. As you were saying you can't just throw some values in there that worked in one place and hope they work elsewhere.

I got a bit "lost" in the numbers from the TB test so I did forget about the fact that they do improve drivabilty and throttle response. Thinking back I do remember tracking down a couple larger throttle bodies for some past Civics I had. They were D series engine. If they did much, who knows but its just fun to play around. :0)

Took it out and tested this map. The 3800 does seem low. One thing I have noticed is that on low cam the intake sound gets louder as it gets up to crossover, switches to VTEC and gets quieter then the sounds builds up from there. I can feel the pull. With the Z3 cams it was just loud then got much louder at crossover. I'm not entirely sure why these cams do that. But overall the intake noise is much louder on the TSX cams than the Z3. I did notice it start to pull a bit harder around 5000-5500. I have to go out later this evening and I'll try to pay closer attention to the 3800 crossover and how it pulls.

I must admit this is a lot of fun for me. Greatly appreciate your help. Thank you
Attachments
datalog0007.1.fpdl
(3.03 MiB) Downloaded 70 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah it definitely bogged there like I thought it would. I had to find out because the way the trends were going just didn't make sense, other than the elevation variable.
Fuel Table Comparison.JPG
Fuel Table Comparison.JPG (541.17 KiB) Viewed 1539 times
You can see my dilemma in your 30* cam fuel table compared to a bone stock 8th gen in Canada at normal elevation. Notice how in the right hand portion of the screenshot around 4500 the fuel dips and then doesn't really come back up, sort of trends downward, that's your file. Where on the left it has a small dip but comes back up at the same 4500 rpm area, that is an 8th gen near sea level. That's where the struggle to find your vtec engagement comes from because of this dip. This could be a combination of the cams and intake mods, while still having stock exhaust components too, though the altitude is doing us any favors.

I think I have a pretty good plan for it in the cam angel table. Take this one for a drive and we'll see how it looks. I have vtec set to come on at 4850, I think this is our best chance to get it to get out of the whole and keep pulling through vtec. Granted you don't do a lot of 2500 to redline pulls in real life, if any, it's mostly for tuning purposes. So drive this one however you like and we'll see how it looks. Only thing is shoot for 20 minutes still and at least one WOT pull in third. Other than that, feel free to drive it however and make however many pulls you want. Let me know what you think about vtec at 4850 and how it transitions.
afauser.SD.Rev08 (Blended).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

Drove it a couple times on this map. Seems to feel ok. The 4850 VTEC seems a little odd now because you had it set lower for so long. I got used to it coming on sooner. No biggie, just an observation. It feels like it pulls ok up until crossover and I can feel the increase in pull with VTEC.

I see what you mean about the fuel maps. I am beginning to wonder if I should do something with the exhaust in the future. Possibly a larger catback system as a start.

I was also watching some other videos Nick had put out. In particular the intake comparison. Was interesting to see that the style of intake I am running was not exactly the greatest choice out there. The intake air temps were getting up there in his test. So like a hot air intake. aye. I am wondering if I change that up how it will affect the tune.

Thanks
Attachments
datalog0008b.fpdl
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datalog0008long.fpdl
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2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah vtec that high is a little strange when you're used to it lower. In this next one, let's move it down to 4300 and see what you think. It may not be too bad, the way I had it at 4850 might have felt weird because of the dip in that area. See what you think on this one.

I would recommend at least putting the Berk Technology cat pipe in there https://berktechnology.com/product-cate ... i-fa5-fg2/. They make a catted on non cattted version. For a race header, the K-tuned variant is a great option. The stock cat is a bottleneck for sure.

Yes your intake will hinder you in the hotter months, even the colder months. If you sit at a light for a long time or a drive thru in the summer, your intake temps will get up near 150*F. Any short ram really is going to have this problem because of the nature of the engine bay design on 8th gens. I always recommend the Skunk 2 intake or the Hybrid Racing. They are the two highest performing ones I have worked with. The tune should be reinspected for both the cat pipe and swapping to the S2 intake or Hybrid Racing. Though you can certainly drive on it before we retune it as it is now tuned with an intake. You should see a pretty good increase with those intakes.

Here is the next revision for you. Vtec is at 4300, see what you think. Fueling looks great, so we're on the right track. I made some small cam angle adjustments around 8000 to see if we can carry the power out further.
afauser.SD.Rev09 (Blended)(4300)(CamAngle).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

Just a small update. I have driven a few short trips with your most recent map. Feels good. Running through the first two gears it feels quite happy. I will try to get out later tonight to do a datalog run. May not happen until tomorrow. Thank you.

I will look into that pipe you mentioned.
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

afauser wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:03 pm Just a small update. I have driven a few short trips with your most recent map. Feels good. Running through the first two gears it feels quite happy. I will try to get out later tonight to do a datalog run. May not happen until tomorrow. Thank you.

I will look into that pipe you mentioned.
Good to hear. If you like vtec there, we will make it as good as we can for you. Just keep me in the loop.
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

Managed to get out for a drive. It felt really good with the "butt dyno". It feels like it pulls all the way through then the increased kick with VTEC. The intake sound is fairly steady all the way through as well with VTEC at 4300. Slight dip in sound level. Unsure if that really means too much though. I want to say I did read something about it somewhere but that was awhile ago.

I think I will go with the Berk test pipe next month(birthday gift to myself :0P ). With the map you have created now would you just build off of it/tweak it as needed, correct? I originally didn't have intentions of doing exhaust work but I think I need to ditch the cat at the very least... Berk doesn't show shipping to Canada but I tracked one down on ebay. Hope it is still available then...
Attachments
datalog0009.fpdl
(3.34 MiB) Downloaded 66 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Glad it feels and sounds better. With the way the fuel tables are, we just aren't getting an ideal crossover in fuel demand. You will rarely make pulls like we do in datalogging, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. I just try to get you guys the best results I can with the tools I have, and your feedback. Your feedback is the most important tool I have because it's what feels good to you guys. I don't care about what the data shows, if you like it at a certain rpm based on your feel and you don't like it based on the data, I am going with your feel for the car every time. That is what this is all about. I think once we some exhaust mods on, things will open up a bit, I hope anyways.

Yeah once you get the berk pipe, we'll probably run you through the 15* cam angle again, the 30*, and 40* just so I can build the tables out completely. Then we look for the vtec range again. The Berk pipe will open up things I am sure. A race header is ideal, though they can be a pain, clank against crossmembers, and make harder to pass inspections. Yeah swoop one up if you can.

It looks really good. Had a small knock show up from the cam angle change I made, so I made an adjustment for that. For fueling, I made an intake temp compensation adjustment instead of fuel table changes. We'll see how it looks on this one. It's looking great though, just fine tuning things right now.

Here is the next one.
afauser.SD.Rev10 (Blended).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

Drove a bit on the current revision. Feels good. Just haven't had time to do a data log run. Possibly later today. See of it needs anything. I'm thinking after this one we will just let it be until I get that test pipe. I trulyi truly appreciate all your time that you have spent on this. Thank you. I just feel that if I'm going to be changing it up I don't want to use up anymore of your time. Come back to it after the pipe is in.

I came across a video Nick did. Now the locked VTC runs and adjusting really makes sense to me. https://youtu.be/Mx-n-Jnl0_8

Overall the car feels really good and I'm happy with it.
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Sounds good. It's in a good place, just when it went through the new cam angle change I made the ignition needed adjustment for that. So it looks really good, a knock here or there isn't bad, I just like to be at 0 knock since it's the responsible thing to do in my eyes when helping you guys out. I'm glad you're happy with it so far and you're welcome. Once you get the Berk pipe we'll run it back through to get it dialed. It won't be as labor intensive, as now we have tuned the car for now.

Yeah that is why we run through each cam angle as Nick points out. If your tuner doesn't do this with you, then I am sorry. I only do complete files in a crunch for people in a hurry or those who are waiting on mods and want to have fun while they wait. When it comes to a tune they will have for a long period such as you, I always run it through each cam angle. It really isn't that much more labor intensive when you think about it. On a complete file, I've seen the best tuners in the world take 20 revisions to get it right. If you lock cam angles and tune them individually, you can get it really good in 10 revisions like yours, sure some may still take 20 for various reasons. Not to mention the tune is more complete by a long shot. Say the VTC were to fail and go to 0*, if that table isn't tuned right the car will run poorly. Not ideal on a road trip. There are so many reasons to tune each angle properly, not to mention I don't find it take any more of my time or the customer's.

Just keep me in the loop.
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

Took it out for a drive to datalog. Again it feels good but I noticed one other thing today while running through 2nd gear-I`m sure it is like this in all gears but just more noticeable in 2nd. Once it gets to 6000rpm I can feel it pulling harder again. Like a 2 stage VTEC :O) 4300 then 6000.

I decided to just order the pipe now. Should show up in the next few weeks.

I added the log from today. If there is any adjustments. Great. If not. That`s great too.

Thank you.
Attachments
datalog00010.fpdl
(3.87 MiB) Downloaded 60 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Looks good, had one knock as part throttle. I made a little adjustment in the compensation tables since your intake temps were around 97*. it knocked in an area you won't feel any reduction power from reduced ignition, so that's good.

What you feel at 6000 might be more of an audible sound than a feel. I don't know why it does this, but 8th gens depending on the intake and stuff have a sound that makes it sound like there is another vtec around there. I remember when I got my first 8th gen, I thought the same thing when I had an intake only. If you did feel a little more power, I have it ramping up to 40* VTC right there at 6000 rpm which would be where it starts to near peak power. So it might be a combo of both, I wish I could give you a second vtec, haha. I want to get you more cam angle under vtec, but I don't want to overwork the VTC as it can only rotate so fast when it switches to vtec. If you don't guide the VTC in the tables to rotate smoothly, it will lag behind and throws off fueling.

For what it's worth, your car looks like it absolutely takes off when you hit vtec. Is it a pretty big jump in power when vtec hits at 4300? I wish I could get you more power up to vtec on those long pulls, but there just isn't enough demand for fuel there to help out because of the elevation. I guess just work to keep it wound up as best you can. We'll see how it looks with the Berk pipe and hopefully get you some extra power.

Here is the next one for you. This should be the one for now, but feel free to make a datalog if you want. You're not wasting my time, we're just making small changes now so we're good. I want them to be right for you guys.
afauser.SD.Rev11 (Blended).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

I hear what you are saying but I definitely feel more pull at 6000 not just sound. :o) And yes once VTEC comes in it does take off. I'm thinking it is a lot to do with the camshafts and the tune. I don't remember it being quite like this with the old cams and stock tune. Only makes sense. Right?

Its all good what you have done. I trust your word and your work. It all makes sense when you can see the maps and feel it with how the car responds. *thumbs up*

I'll run his map for awhile. Put the pipe in and go from there. Somewhere between June 4-12 it is supposed to arrive.
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah it must be the extra cam angle then. It seems like when vtec comes on the rpms and speed ramp up quick. Yeah it is most likely the camshafts and having a somewhat proper cam angle map. The OEM cam angle map is all over the place.

Give this file a shot and let me know how it works. I moved vtec down to come on 4100 and ramped in the cam angle sooner. See if it makes things better or not.
afauser.SD.Rev11 (Blended)(Vtec4100).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

I see what you mean about the cam angle map. I just looked at the stock map on manager. Oi. Your map is much smoother and easier to look at even.

I'll give this one a whirl and let you know. :O) Thanks
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
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