2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2006-2011 Americas Civic Si
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah without any exhaust mods it really runs out of breath on the 40* cam angle. It definitely doesn't do you any good in the part throttle low cam stuff, but it does like some just into the vtec on the high cam which helps midrange a bit. But it falls off hard at the end. On your old tune, we were on the 40* at vtec and tapered all the way down to the 15* cam angle. With the HR intake, it wants the 30* cam at redline, so it is more efficient for sure and should pick up some power over the old intake. If nothing else though, the HR intake will give you better results year round' due to the much better intake temps.

In some ways the 0* cam may sound better because it's not laboring as hard as the 40* cam angle. The 0* cam is very free, but it just doesn't make any power really, on 8th gens anyways, on 9th gens with a stock intake manifold it very well could taper to the 0* cam angle up top. 8th's don't need that much taper though, even stock. But that could be what you heard too. That and the intake was new and exciting, now you're used to it. Haha.

Overall it looks great. Now we blend things out to finalize. I've got the cam angle mapped out now for the new intake. Take it for a spin and see how it goes. The low cam angle is a little different than before based on the new data, so hopefully it feels a little stronger. The high cam is very similar, other than the taper at redline doesn't go down as far, so it should pick up some top end. I also put vtec at 3800 to test. I know it seems really low for just an intake, but I think with your elevation it might work out well. We were at 4100 before, but looking at the data I think 3800 might work better. Your car seems to almost stop accelerating right before 4500 on the low cam, which makes sense looking at the tables. By going to 3800 it should help get you out of the hole on those third gear pulls. See what you think. Remember 3800 is just the lower threshold, it doesn't mean it will engage vtec every time you go past 3800, you need to be near WOT. So you don't have to worry about it coming on every time you run the rpms up past 3800 in part throttle. We can always move it up for whatever reason, but give it a shot to see what you think.

Same datalog and driving style.
afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev06 (Blended)(Vtec3800).fpcal
(22.2 KiB) Downloaded 88 times
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:49 am Yeah without any exhaust mods it really runs out of breath on the 40* cam angle. It definitely doesn't do you any good in the part throttle low cam stuff, but it does like some just into the vtec on the high cam which helps midrange a bit. But it falls off hard at the end. On your old tune, we were on the 40* at vtec and tapered all the way down to the 15* cam angle. With the HR intake, it wants the 30* cam at redline, so it is more efficient for sure and should pick up some power over the old intake. If nothing else though, the HR intake will give you better results year round' due to the much better intake temps.

In some ways the 0* cam may sound better because it's not laboring as hard as the 40* cam angle. The 0* cam is very free, but it just doesn't make any power really, on 8th gens anyways, on 9th gens with a stock intake manifold it very well could taper to the 0* cam angle up top. 8th's don't need that much taper though, even stock. But that could be what you heard too. That and the intake was new and exciting, now you're used to it. Haha.

Overall it looks great. Now we blend things out to finalize. I've got the cam angle mapped out now for the new intake. Take it for a spin and see how it goes. The low cam angle is a little different than before based on the new data, so hopefully it feels a little stronger. The high cam is very similar, other than the taper at redline doesn't go down as far, so it should pick up some top end. I also put vtec at 3800 to test. I know it seems really low for just an intake, but I think with your elevation it might work out well. We were at 4100 before, but looking at the data I think 3800 might work better. Your car seems to almost stop accelerating right before 4500 on the low cam, which makes sense looking at the tables. By going to 3800 it should help get you out of the hole on those third gear pulls. See what you think. Remember 3800 is just the lower threshold, it doesn't mean it will engage vtec every time you go past 3800, you need to be near WOT. So you don't have to worry about it coming on every time you run the rpms up past 3800 in part throttle. We can always move it up for whatever reason, but give it a shot to see what you think.

Same datalog and driving style.

afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev06 (Blended)(Vtec3800).fpcal
As I read through your message this morning I was overcome by excitement to go out and drive/do this next log. It is exactly like you said. Out of the hole is fantastic. Midrange partial throttle is fantastic. In 2nd or 3rd I can feel that it just has more pull. Much more pep in it's step than before with the Takeda intake.

I did two logs this morning, first one just didn't seem long enough. First has the WOT run(no traffic and a wide open road) and the second I had a little fun with... 1st to 3rd run... I felt like I just had to let this sewing machine stretch it's legs a little bit from a stop... I am just jacked right now with the result. The "a" log does have one knock it came about in the WOT mid revs range and nothing on the "b" log on the 1st to 3rd run.
Attachments
datalogSD.V2HR.Rev06b.fpdl
(1.82 MiB) Downloaded 82 times
datalogSD.V2HR.Rev06a.fpdl
(1.9 MiB) Downloaded 78 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Makes me happy to hear you guys get excited like that, it's the whole point of why I do it, as well as I literally enjoy doing this stuff. Granted when things don't go as expected it's a grueling mental bashing, but when it all goes smooth like your car has with the new intake it's so much fun. So to know you were excited is awesome to hear.

Yeah out of the hole it was really strong there, and the AFR was dead on on the ramp to vtec which is great. But I think the vtec crossover at 3800 was the trick we need honestly. Watching it climb up to 3800 I could see it pulling nicely and when it hit vtec it really shot forward. Both the injector pulse and the rpm ramp right there at vtec show it really liked that. To be honest, we could probably move it down to 3600 and get a slightly better result, but we can leave it up to you on that. It looks like it pops just right though, much better than 4500 where it really runs out of breath before vtec. 3800 is very low for most NA setups, but being at your elevation it's craving that high cam to get it moving, so I think we found a good area, and the data shows it, though your feeling in the car is all that matters, much more than data IMO. So let me know how it felt on the crossover at 3800.

When I made the new cam angle map, I was slightly surprised that it wanted less cam angle in the midrange, but it wanted more up top. I knew it would want more up top based on the intake difference, but the midrange surprised me. Just goes to show you can't say always, or every car should, it just doesn't work that way. So that is probably what you're feeling on those 1-2-3 or 2-3 pulls is that extra cam angle up top thanks to the new intake allowing that. Not to mention I think your cams shine a little more now with the better intake and cooler temps. If you ever do something in the exhaust setup, it will really wake up. Especially with something like the Berk pipe we talked about before.

Overall the logs looks great. I compared the two in order to get better average data for part throttle. The WOT fueling was almost dead on, the only real sizable changes was between 3800 and 4300 on the high cam since we moved vtec down so much, but I cleaned that up for this next one. And the knock you had is normal, I removed a touch of ignition right there to hopefully keep the power in it, but get rid of the knock.

Here is the next one. Same datalog and driving style. We should be there on this one, if not like 99.9%, so you're more than ready for the road trip you're taking tomorrow. If you want to do some steady speed highway/freeway driving like you'll be doing on your trip that is fine too, instead of the stop and go type stuff. Just be sure to get a clean third gear pull in third gear like you've been doing. On the next one after this, I will probably throw in my sport pedal map and see what you think. I don't see we did that in our old files, that might make things a little more fun as well. For now though, take this one for a spin and we'll see where we land.
afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev07 (Blended)(Vtec3800).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:05 pm Makes me happy to hear you guys get excited like that, it's the whole point of why I do it, as well as I literally enjoy doing this stuff. Granted when things don't go as expected it's a grueling mental bashing, but when it all goes smooth like your car has with the new intake it's so much fun. So to know you were excited is awesome to hear.

Yeah out of the hole it was really strong there, and the AFR was dead on on the ramp to vtec which is great. But I think the vtec crossover at 3800 was the trick we need honestly. Watching it climb up to 3800 I could see it pulling nicely and when it hit vtec it really shot forward. Both the injector pulse and the rpm ramp right there at vtec show it really liked that. To be honest, we could probably move it down to 3600 and get a slightly better result, but we can leave it up to you on that. It looks like it pops just right though, much better than 4500 where it really runs out of breath before vtec. 3800 is very low for most NA setups, but being at your elevation it's craving that high cam to get it moving, so I think we found a good area, and the data shows it, though your feeling in the car is all that matters, much more than data IMO. So let me know how it felt on the crossover at 3800.

When I made the new cam angle map, I was slightly surprised that it wanted less cam angle in the midrange, but it wanted more up top. I knew it would want more up top based on the intake difference, but the midrange surprised me. Just goes to show you can't say always, or every car should, it just doesn't work that way. So that is probably what you're feeling on those 1-2-3 or 2-3 pulls is that extra cam angle up top thanks to the new intake allowing that. Not to mention I think your cams shine a little more now with the better intake and cooler temps. If you ever do something in the exhaust setup, it will really wake up. Especially with something like the Berk pipe we talked about before.

Overall the logs looks great. I compared the two in order to get better average data for part throttle. The WOT fueling was almost dead on, the only real sizable changes was between 3800 and 4300 on the high cam since we moved vtec down so much, but I cleaned that up for this next one. And the knock you had is normal, I removed a touch of ignition right there to hopefully keep the power in it, but get rid of the knock.

Here is the next one. Same datalog and driving style. We should be there on this one, if not like 99.9%, so you're more than ready for the road trip you're taking tomorrow. If you want to do some steady speed highway/freeway driving like you'll be doing on your trip that is fine too, instead of the stop and go type stuff. Just be sure to get a clean third gear pull in third gear like you've been doing. On the next one after this, I will probably throw in my sport pedal map and see what you think. I don't see we did that in our old files, that might make things a little more fun as well. For now though, take this one for a spin and we'll see where we land.

afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev07 (Blended)(Vtec3800).fpcal
I hear you on the mental bashing if it doesn't go right. Working on Audi's everyday kind of does that to a guy. lol Some days are good and others not so much. Super fun cars to drive but can they ever be a pain if something doesn't go right... But when a lengthy repair job or diagnosis job is finished and everything works it is a glorious and rewarding feeling.

I felt like a kid in a candy store when I was reading that post this morning!

I agree with you on the VTEC point being at 3800rpm. It feels really good there but maybe we can try the 3600rpm point and go from there. Give it a whirl. Not sure if I mentioned this before, something I noticed with the TSX cams the VTEC crossover is not as "loud" as with the original Z3 cams, it is weird but I can sure feel the pull once it kicks. Even before the tuning I had noticed this.

Not that I expect you to remember everyone's modification but I do have to Berk test pipe installed. I believe I got it mid June or so. I have been thinking of doing an exhaust setup but it is going to have to wait for a bit. Also not sure what size to go with. 2.75" or 3". Good friend of mine found that K series like a 3.5" to 4" intake with 3" exhaust but I'm just not sure if I should go with a 3". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I did get a chance to drive it but I did not get a chance to do a WOT pull. Traffic on a Sunday afternoon on a holiday weekend is a bit busy to say the least. I will upload it if you want to have a look. I am unable to get the WOT run done this evening. I'm sure I will be able to get one in tomorrow though. Thank you.
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Oh man, working on Audi's and BMWs is how serial killers are built. Haha. Bang your head against a wall just to bang it some more sometimes.

Yeah I"ve never heard a one of these with the TSX cams so I'm not sure of the difference. Part of it could be how I do the cam angle ramp up to vtec. I gradually build it up where the tune you may have been on jumps probably 20* rights vtec which can cause that increased sound. The way I do it makes it sound less impressive on the crossover, but guiding the VTC system to make gradual increases keeps the tune more consistent. The VTC can only rotate so fast, so large jumps of increase and decrease can cause the actual com angle to chase the cam commanded.

I'm an idiot, haha. I was looking back through our messages on here looking for when you put the Berk pipe in and I didn't see it. Sorry. I saw us talking about it, and I noticed one file had "Berk" in the title, but I thought it was me testing things for the Berk pipe to go in. I've been so busy with things the last few months I forgot you did get it. With a 3" you are sort of stuck with a loud exhaust, not much you can do there. It might help a lot due to your elevation, but I don't know that you strike me as the guy who wants a loud exhaust, but I could be wrong. The Full Race system is very nice, a lot of guys go Invidia as well. I tried an old Go Power I think was the name years ago it about droned my headliner out of the car. I went for one drive and took it off when I got back home. It just wasn't for me. I ended up going with the Apexi Noir, their quiet black system. It helped a bit, but nothing like a 3". I mainly liked the black pipe and muffler and the quiet exhaust for having no cat. In California, cops don't like a shiny muffler or a loud one at all.

We'll just wait until you get a WOT pull in. The part throttle stuff is really good, just dialing that WOT fuel in mostly, and verifying everything else of course. So whenever you get it go ahead and post, then we'll go from there. And try the 3600 vtec too.

Glad you're enjoying the car. It definitely looks like your investment in the HR intake has paid off.
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:12 pm Oh man, working on Audi's and BMWs is how serial killers are built. Haha. Bang your head against a wall just to bang it some more sometimes.

Yeah I"ve never heard a one of these with the TSX cams so I'm not sure of the difference. Part of it could be how I do the cam angle ramp up to vtec. I gradually build it up where the tune you may have been on jumps probably 20* rights vtec which can cause that increased sound. The way I do it makes it sound less impressive on the crossover, but guiding the VTC system to make gradual increases keeps the tune more consistent. The VTC can only rotate so fast, so large jumps of increase and decrease can cause the actual com angle to chase the cam commanded.

I'm an idiot, haha. I was looking back through our messages on here looking for when you put the Berk pipe in and I didn't see it. Sorry. I saw us talking about it, and I noticed one file had "Berk" in the title, but I thought it was me testing things for the Berk pipe to go in. I've been so busy with things the last few months I forgot you did get it. With a 3" you are sort of stuck with a loud exhaust, not much you can do there. It might help a lot due to your elevation, but I don't know that you strike me as the guy who wants a loud exhaust, but I could be wrong. The Full Race system is very nice, a lot of guys go Invidia as well. I tried an old Go Power I think was the name years ago it about droned my headliner out of the car. I went for one drive and took it off when I got back home. It just wasn't for me. I ended up going with the Apexi Noir, their quiet black system. It helped a bit, but nothing like a 3". I mainly liked the black pipe and muffler and the quiet exhaust for having no cat. In California, cops don't like a shiny muffler or a loud one at all.

We'll just wait until you get a WOT pull in. The part throttle stuff is really good, just dialing that WOT fuel in mostly, and verifying everything else of course. So whenever you get it go ahead and post, then we'll go from there. And try the 3600 vtec too.

Glad you're enjoying the car. It definitely looks like your investment in the HR intake has paid off.
aahahha Isn't that the truth! It can be quite ridiculous how Audi's are engineered. I swear I learn something new almost everyday and shake my head just as much...

It's all good that you missed that I got the Berk pipe. You are dealing with multiple people at one time. Not sure how you do it but I'm sure you have a system that is working well for you. And you are correct, I don't really want a crazy loud exhaust. If it was 15 years ago. Sure. The police around here are cracking down on loud vehicles and bikes so getting a loud exhaust is not quite my cup of tea. There is also something that puts me off about overly shiny mufflers and such. Just looks odd to me. I looked up that Noir system you mentioned and I can see how that would just blend right in and not draw excessive attention. I took off the OEM tip on my muffler and welded on a turn down tip just to get rid of that massive OE tip.

Did the 2 hour highway drive today and it felt really good. I wasn't running a log but there were a few knocks while cruising but I feel like the odd one here and there is fine. Am I correct in saying that? I was able to get out this evening for a proper datalog drive and I did 2 WOT runs. The drive is a bit longer on this one. I do feel like you are really close to finalizing this beasty. I was also thinking that one of these days I may just take it to a dyno and see what kind of power we got out of it...
Attachments
datalogSD.V2HR.Rev07.fpdl
(5.22 MiB) Downloaded 72 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah it's usually fairly easy to keep track of everyone's mods, I think it's more that we've been working on your now for almost three months and I lost track of the Berk pipe. Where has three months gone, haha. Sheesh, now I feel bad...

I don't blame you on the exhaust. These cars are so hard to get them to sound good, unless they're turbo of course, then they sound amazing IMO. You walk a fine line from being too loud, to sounding good, to performing well, etc. It's so hard to find that balance you want of looks and sound. My 8th had a Rick Spec'd 3.5" intake, Berk pipe, and the Noir exhaust and I was happy with the sound and performance. Sadly I was tuned by someone 10 years ago who used a one size fits all calibration that he just dialed the fuel for. Literally no cam angle changes from the basemap, no ignition changes, nothing, just fuel. Now that I know how this stuff works, I am amazed that guy had such a good reputation. Going through that, makes me want to tailor everything for your cars specifically because I know what it's like to get that subpar level of service. Granted the tune only cost me $200, but I thought I was getting a world class tune. Looking over those files now, that couldn't be further from the truth.

A few knock on a drive is no issue at all. My main focus is removing all repeatable knock, that way we know you aren't getting knock in s specific area over and over again. If you get a random few here and there with no real consistency, then that is fine. When you think of the complexity of these engines, it's amazing that random knock isn't more common. But yeah, a few random ones is fine, we just want to eliminate the repeatable ones that happen on a semi regular basis.

Overall this one looks good. I made a few changes to the fueling and some ignition changes for the knock that showed up. I also lowered vtec down to 3600 for this next one. I love how it kicks at 3800, but I think at 3600 it might get you that same kick a little quicker. It's totally up to you, so just let me know your thoughts on 3600 or 3800 and we'll go that route moving forward.
afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev08.1 (Blended)(Vtec3600).fpcal
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afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:56 pm Yeah it's usually fairly easy to keep track of everyone's mods, I think it's more that we've been working on your now for almost three months and I lost track of the Berk pipe. Where has three months gone, haha. Sheesh, now I feel bad...

I don't blame you on the exhaust. These cars are so hard to get them to sound good, unless they're turbo of course, then they sound amazing IMO. You walk a fine line from being too loud, to sounding good, to performing well, etc. It's so hard to find that balance you want of looks and sound. My 8th had a Rick Spec'd 3.5" intake, Berk pipe, and the Noir exhaust and I was happy with the sound and performance. Sadly I was tuned by someone 10 years ago who used a one size fits all calibration that he just dialed the fuel for. Literally no cam angle changes from the basemap, no ignition changes, nothing, just fuel. Now that I know how this stuff works, I am amazed that guy had such a good reputation. Going through that, makes me want to tailor everything for your cars specifically because I know what it's like to get that subpar level of service. Granted the tune only cost me $200, but I thought I was getting a world class tune. Looking over those files now, that couldn't be further from the truth.

A few knock on a drive is no issue at all. My main focus is removing all repeatable knock, that way we know you aren't getting knock in s specific area over and over again. If you get a random few here and there with no real consistency, then that is fine. When you think of the complexity of these engines, it's amazing that random knock isn't more common. But yeah, a few random ones is fine, we just want to eliminate the repeatable ones that happen on a semi regular basis.

Overall this one looks good. I made a few changes to the fueling and some ignition changes for the knock that showed up. I also lowered vtec down to 3600 for this next one. I love how it kicks at 3800, but I think at 3600 it might get you that same kick a little quicker. It's totally up to you, so just let me know your thoughts on 3600 or 3800 and we'll go that route moving forward.

afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev08.1 (Blended)(Vtec3600).fpcal
Please don't feel bad about it. I was no help by changing components while you have been tuning it. Also didn't help that it took three weeks for the Berk pipe to come in... I feel bad that it has taken so long and I was changing parts once we had it close.

I still have an old 5Zigen fireball muffler I tried to put on this car but the pipe is different. It was for a 5th gen Civic hatch so the pipe over the rear axle has a big hump, 8th gen Civic is pretty flat/straight and of course it doesn't fit. When I had my C5 swapped 95 Sedan I also had the 8th gen Civic HFP muffler but I sold that with the car... Too bad because I would put that on this car if I still had it. It sounded decent if I remember correctly. I have tried to find one now but no luck. I had 4 different mufflers for that car I would rotate through. heh

I try to follow you with what you are changing on these maps but I must admit I get a bit lost in it. There is more to it than what I expected. Sure isn't something that can be learnt overnight.

Ya that's what I figured about the knock. I could drive it multiple times and there would be nothing then the next time there would be one for whatever reason. Usually drive it the same every time I'm out other than the 3rd gear pulls.

I drove a bit today but unable to do a longer drive with a 3rd pull. It feels really good with VTEC coming on at 3600 it seems very smooth through the crossover and continues to pull through the revs. Should be able to get a proper log done tomorrow.
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah I've heard a lot of guys like the HFP exhaust. I don't know that I've ever heard it, at least not knowingly anyways. That's the bummer about liking OEM parts like the HFP exhaust, once they discontinue it, it's very hard to find something and in the condition you would like it to be in.

Once you get the basics of tuning down you can learn it overnight. The only things that are difficult to grasp quickly is how to build the cam angle map and understanding the pressures and thresholds for WOT to make sure open loop operation happens when you want it to. And to make sure vtec doesn't kick on too easy with light throttle pressure. Especially as low as we have it on your car, we don't want it clicking into vtec when you roll past 3600 at part throttle. Though I did have one guy who did want it to do that, so I lowered the pressure threshold so it would for him. But yeah, I know the weird feeling when you look at everything. I was the same way a long time ago. It's very simple though once you get over the learning hump. Other than that, the Hondata platform makes it very straightforward by literally telling you what fuel changes are needed and stuff like that. The main thing is setting your dashboard up in FP to work for what you need. My dashboard is very different from most peoples, as I try to make it seem as though I'm riding with you guys when I view your datalogs. So I have a needle sweeping tach and other stuff so it seems as though I'm riding with you in the car. It helps me follow how things are driving and how the vtec crossover pops.

Yeah as long as you get rid of the repeatable knock IMO that is the best practice you can do for e-tuning. If we had a dyno we might find a lower ignition works better for part throttle, and it may not. Granted unless you go to a top-tier tuner like Evans tuning, most guys don't for maximum brake torque (MBT). Evans will literally run your car on the dyno at part throttle to find MBT on all your cam angles to get you the most part throttle power while also dialing in every portion of the fuel tables. Watching him tune is definitely an art IMO, and why I focused on him and his techniques for my learning phase. It would be nice to have a load bearing dyno like he does, where he can hold an rpm while giving it varying different throttle positions to tune the fuel tables perfect. Which is why tuning each cam angle is so important. I honestly get anxiety tuning a completed file for a guy instead of tuning each cam angle one by one like we did with you because it doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I always try to get guys to go the route we went with you, it makes for a better product and I feel like it's been done right after that.

Sounds good. Just post it up when you get it, no rush. Glad it feels good at 3600. It's weird for me having it that low, but it works on your car, so that is all that matters.
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:23 am Yeah I've heard a lot of guys like the HFP exhaust. I don't know that I've ever heard it, at least not knowingly anyways. That's the bummer about liking OEM parts like the HFP exhaust, once they discontinue it, it's very hard to find something and in the condition you would like it to be in.

Once you get the basics of tuning down you can learn it overnight. The only things that are difficult to grasp quickly is how to build the cam angle map and understanding the pressures and thresholds for WOT to make sure open loop operation happens when you want it to. And to make sure vtec doesn't kick on too easy with light throttle pressure. Especially as low as we have it on your car, we don't want it clicking into vtec when you roll past 3600 at part throttle. Though I did have one guy who did want it to do that, so I lowered the pressure threshold so it would for him. But yeah, I know the weird feeling when you look at everything. I was the same way a long time ago. It's very simple though once you get over the learning hump. Other than that, the Hondata platform makes it very straightforward by literally telling you what fuel changes are needed and stuff like that. The main thing is setting your dashboard up in FP to work for what you need. My dashboard is very different from most peoples, as I try to make it seem as though I'm riding with you guys when I view your datalogs. So I have a needle sweeping tach and other stuff so it seems as though I'm riding with you in the car. It helps me follow how things are driving and how the vtec crossover pops.

Yeah as long as you get rid of the repeatable knock IMO that is the best practice you can do for e-tuning. If we had a dyno we might find a lower ignition works better for part throttle, and it may not. Granted unless you go to a top-tier tuner like Evans tuning, most guys don't for maximum brake torque (MBT). Evans will literally run your car on the dyno at part throttle to find MBT on all your cam angles to get you the most part throttle power while also dialing in every portion of the fuel tables. Watching him tune is definitely an art IMO, and why I focused on him and his techniques for my learning phase. It would be nice to have a load bearing dyno like he does, where he can hold an rpm while giving it varying different throttle positions to tune the fuel tables perfect. Which is why tuning each cam angle is so important. I honestly get anxiety tuning a completed file for a guy instead of tuning each cam angle one by one like we did with you because it doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I always try to get guys to go the route we went with you, it makes for a better product and I feel like it's been done right after that.

Sounds good. Just post it up when you get it, no rush. Glad it feels good at 3600. It's weird for me having it that low, but it works on your car, so that is all that matters.
I'll just have to keep my eyes peeled for a HFP muffler. It is possible that one may eventually pop up. I do remember I got mine for super cheap because they were clearing out the warehouses.

When I get some more time I will sit down and play around with FP and see what I can figure out. Having 2 younger kids doesn't give me much time to do such things. It just seems like there is always something else to do with them. And if there is time it is usually later in the day/night and at that point I can't focus... I can read but nothing sinks in lol

Ya having the VTEC at 3600 is just fine under lighter throttle like you were saying. I'm sure I have gone over 4000 and it still has not come on which is perfect. The midrange in 2nd and 3rd with the PNN4 gearing is fantastic. I feel like this is what we were trying to achieve. Better drivability in that range. Better for around town driving. As you stated before getting out of the hole quicker which is exactly what it does.

I was finally able to get a log completed. A bit of city driving and some cruising. Attempted one WOT pull but had to back out around 7700rpm due to running out of real estate to stay in it. One thing I did find that in 6th around 2600-2800 I was getting some knock when adding some throttle. I also had that same knock on another drive but in that log there was no WOT run... Thanks
Attachments
datalogSD.V2HR.Rev08.1.fpdl
(5.06 MiB) Downloaded 71 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
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Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

Yeah if you come across an HFP muffler it would be easy to clean up the tune, it would only change it a little in the tune perhaps, but it would free up the exhaust a bit and feel better in the car most likely. Tuning stuff is fairly simple once you get through the complicated stuff. I know a lot of guys psych themselves out, when in reality it's more daunting to study than it is in practice. With two young ones though, good luck, you're sanity is on the brink as is, don't push it. Haha.

It looks like it's happy with the 3600 crossover which is great. It looks like the kick we had at 3800 is still there at 3600 which is nice. Especially when getting on a highway or something and having that power kick in earlier.

I noticed the knock you mention, so I made a few ignition changes for that. I've got it retarding ignition on 6th gear already, so I made the changes in the ignition table to help remove the knock you see. It's a sensitive area because of how the load is calculated in those higher gears, so do the same test you were doing in this one and we will keep an eye on it. Other than that it looks great. Fueling looked a touch leaner on this one, but we will see how it looks on the next one and go from there. Overall though it looks great still.

Here is the next one.
afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev09 (Blended)(Vtec3600).fpcal
(22.31 KiB) Downloaded 75 times
afauser
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 7:52 am

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:06 pm Yeah if you come across an HFP muffler it would be easy to clean up the tune, it would only change it a little in the tune perhaps, but it would free up the exhaust a bit and feel better in the car most likely. Tuning stuff is fairly simple once you get through the complicated stuff. I know a lot of guys psych themselves out, when in reality it's more daunting to study than it is in practice. With two young ones though, good luck, you're sanity is on the brink as is, don't push it. Haha.

It looks like it's happy with the 3600 crossover which is great. It looks like the kick we had at 3800 is still there at 3600 which is nice. Especially when getting on a highway or something and having that power kick in earlier.

I noticed the knock you mention, so I made a few ignition changes for that. I've got it retarding ignition on 6th gear already, so I made the changes in the ignition table to help remove the knock you see. It's a sensitive area because of how the load is calculated in those higher gears, so do the same test you were doing in this one and we will keep an eye on it. Other than that it looks great. Fueling looked a touch leaner on this one, but we will see how it looks on the next one and go from there. Overall though it looks great still.

Here is the next one.
afauser.SD.V2HR.Rev09 (Blended)(Vtec3600).fpcal
With the 3600 crossover the transition between to the two cam profiles is so smooth. I'd like to think that that is good thing. I was once told awhile back is if you can really feel the crossover there is a loss of power at that point. How true that is I don't know but in a way it makes some sense to me.

The last tune was great for a number of days then all of a sudden that knock showed up at that rpm range. Weird. Anyway I'll give this one a go. Thank you
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

afauser wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:21 pm
With the 3600 crossover the transition between to the two cam profiles is so smooth. I'd like to think that that is good thing. I was once told awhile back is if you can really feel the crossover there is a loss of power at that point. How true that is I don't know but in a way it makes some sense to me.

The last tune was great for a number of days then all of a sudden that knock showed up at that rpm range. Weird. Anyway I'll give this one a go. Thank you
Yes that is true. We sort of figured that out in your original tune with it at 4500 or 4600, it really fell off and then picked up a bunch when vtec hit. Which is why the vtec placement is so important. Granted you can get it close in a one size fits all tune, but tailoring it for each car is important. That and taking feedback from you guys too, instead of saying "it should" work best here. Of course a dyno would really tell you, but I like to think the person behind the wheel can tell what they feel while driving. I always go by what you guys like as opposed to what I see, driver feel is the most important thing. The way your car has picked up from 4100, to 3800, and now 3600 is interesting to see visually. Another guy on here from Canada at higher elevation, we had him good at 4300, I tried it at 4000 after seeing your data, but it didn't work as good as it did at 4300. Just shows each car is different, granted your mods are slightly different and you have TSX cams, but still.

Yeah where you had knock is the normal area of sensitivity when accelerating on the highway/freeway. Some cars are more sensitive than others, but again is why we keep testing. We'll get it ironed out though, it's all part of the process.
afauser
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Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by afauser »

EFICU wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:34 pm Yes that is true. We sort of figured that out in your original tune with it at 4500 or 4600, it really fell off and then picked up a bunch when vtec hit. Which is why the vtec placement is so important. Granted you can get it close in a one size fits all tune, but tailoring it for each car is important. That and taking feedback from you guys too, instead of saying "it should" work best here. Of course a dyno would really tell you, but I like to think the person behind the wheel can tell what they feel while driving. I always go by what you guys like as opposed to what I see, driver feel is the most important thing. The way your car has picked up from 4100, to 3800, and now 3600 is interesting to see visually. Another guy on here from Canada at higher elevation, we had him good at 4300, I tried it at 4000 after seeing your data, but it didn't work as good as it did at 4300. Just shows each car is different, granted your mods are slightly different and you have TSX cams, but still.

Yeah where you had knock is the normal area of sensitivity when accelerating on the highway/freeway. Some cars are more sensitive than others, but again is why we keep testing. We'll get it ironed out though, it's all part of the process.
Wow that is kinda interesting about the other guys car. Just makes me wonder what allows my car to have such a low VTEC point. I get that it is a combination of things. Just different. I'm sure a TSX doesn't have that low of a VTEC point but a TSX also has a larger displacement... So that could change how it would respond as well. I'm just kinda rambling here, its late and basically "thinking" out loud lol

And again with that 3600 VTEC point I hardly notice it at times. I may ease into the revs passed 3600 then push a bit more for some more jam and it just goes. Its such a smooth transition.

Took out the car for a couple drives. Occasionally there is some knock in the midrange on partial throttle and notice some at high revs. The "a" log has the 3rd WOT pull. The "b" log is a shorter drive from later tonight. I don't think its a fuel issue as I had similar knock before I fueled up today. In a way I was hoping maybe it was just bad fuel but it doesn't appear to be. Thanks
Attachments
datalogSD.V2HR.Rev09b.fpdl
(2.82 MiB) Downloaded 72 times
datalogSD.V2HR.Rev09a.fpdl
(1.92 MiB) Downloaded 66 times
2008 Civic Si Sedan, 06 TSX camshafts, J35 Throttle Body, Berk Test Pipe, Hybrid Racing CAI,
TL Brembo Front Brake Calipers w/ S2000 Rotors.
EFICU
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Re: 2008 Si Sedan map suggestions please and thank you

Post by EFICU »

I'm sure it's a combo of parts and cams. Honestly could be a number of things. It shows you that the more you know, the less you know. Haha. I used the strategy from your car thinking I had found a strategy for higher elevation cars, but then it didn't work on his. It's definitely something I will keep in the back of my mind though moving forward. It's always good to learn something new you might be able to utilize on all these cars. Yeah the TSX has a ridiculously high vtec RPM as well. Shows you why having it tuned is important for getting the most out of it safely, and why a one size fits all basemap isn't ideal.

That's good that it's smooth at 3600. That is why I keep the cam angle smooth with no large jumps, that way the cam angle can follow the cam commanded nicely. When you have large jumps in cam angle, it makes things a little jerky.

Yeah the knock that showed up is in a couple new areas, so again they are probably just random ones, but I went in and made some changes. I also added the sport pedal map in this next one. We're in a good place for you to see what you think about it. Take this one for a spin when you can and see if you noticed much of a difference with the pedal map.
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