knock tables values changing.

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the FD2 Japanese Civic Type R
dallionz
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:25 am

knock tables values changing.

Post by dallionz » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:05 am

I m driving an fd2r and I feel there are some bugs wif the flashpro. wanna ask wat is the difference in the logic between the hondata reflash map for the fd2r and the civic si map. apart from the increased calibration parameters and options in the si map compared to the fd2r map, is it completely compatible with the japan ecu rather than the US ecu?

i understand that they are similar but not the same in terms of engine control such as the EGR and throttle map not the same between jap and US ECU.

I have flashed some calibrations with my flashpro. same calibration but different feel and experiencing knock at different rpms at part and full throttle. and sometimes I flash it, there will be no knock thru out my journey. this has been determined by many tries on the same exact calibration. I have tried it many times and it seems like the calibration wasn't flashed in properly in some cases. the idling would be irratic and the thottle map in the fg2 SI cal. when I adjusted the throttle to be less responsive in the lower rpms, it would not have a constant throttle reaction when I flashed it a few times. sometimes it feels like stock. sometimes, it feels too sensitive even if I make it less responsive by lowering the value hence the curve in the map is not aggressive.

does anyone realise that the knock values in certain columns decrease when we open the calibration and saved it after?

when we open the calibration again, the values in some columns are different.

i m using the lastest version and still the issue of the tables since the last few beta versions.

in my latest calibration, I have flashed in the same calibration till there is little or no knock. throttle response in the dbw seems to be what I programmed it to be. till then( touchwood) I would not wana flash any changes unless doing major mods.

hondata, I hope u enlighten me on these issues. the job you guys have done in the flashpro manager is spetacular
thanks for bringing up this solution for the hondas around the globe.

dallion

ModFreak
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:09 pm

Post by ModFreak » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:09 am

I have also noticed the knock table reducing at some columns after saving the calibration file. They will keep going down everytime one saves the file.

As for the engine knocking, I'm having this issue as well. Same calibration, after flashing, my ride will knock at a certain cam angle / timming, flash again, it's gone but somewhere will appear.

Will there be any functionality upgrades for FD2R? e.g. throttle adjustment, cooling fan temperature setting etc etc?? One more thing, my tuner tune my ride using the SI map, once I turn my key to ACC ON, after the 15 sec, my engine check light will blink 5 times, Hondata any input on this? I read somewhere in this forum that it will go away after a while bu I've driven my ride for more than 1000km after a flash and still it is there.

fd2typeR
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 pm

Post by fd2typeR » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:20 pm

Hi modfreak....hows yr ride man...

Ok, we both using same tuner, but the funny thing is my ecu die die have to use a JDM mapping. When tuner first tune using SI based calibrations, we got retards and knocking all over the place and initially we suspected could be fuel, thus we changed from Shell to Caltex etc and still i had retards and knocks....when i say retards, i am talking like retarding from btw avg 8 degree to 16 degrees timing and its freaking lots. Thus tuner bring out something which sort of lightens me up, could the JDM ecu and SI ecu have a different backgrd calculations algorithm of the tables?

How we tried is we load back revert to stock calibration and also hondata reflash calibration which is JDM based to test and voila, not a single knock and retard. Thus what we do is copied the whole ign, fuel, cam tables which was tuned by the tuner on the SI calibration and pasted onto and overwrite the figures of the hondata reflash jdm calibration and run it. Logically if the ecu reads the same way, we should be expecting the same thing of retards and knocks, however, once we run it, not a single or bare minimum retard of max perhaps only 3 degree compared to the previous 16 degrees max when on the SI calibration. Thus we can only conclude that the ecu reads differently on the JDM vs SI calibrations. All this only happens on my ride, though most of the bros' rides which was tuned by the same tuner are able to use the SI calibrations. All these are analyse through dataloggings. We spent abt 1 mth together to figure out my ecu problem. Poor tuner, i am really very appreciative for his help rendered to me.

The only downside of JDM calibrations are there are no additional features such as cylinder fuel trim, throttle target plate, all those fan and temp controls setting which are only avail on the SI calibrations. I doubt hondata will add all those features onto the JDM calibrations because they are catered more for SI based users though i would wish hondata will add those into the JDM too. At least will benefit users like me who can only use JDM calibrations to tune. The other feature that is extremely useful will be individual gear tuning, which will be very useful tuning tool for daily part throttle driveability. Now is like when there are retards on a certain gear, we can only lower the timing for that area. However, those areas are also being used by other gears which isn't having any retards.

Well...i would say that flashpro is still in the middle of improvements with the efforts and help of hondata. I am sure we will be seeing more upcoming interesting functions hondata will be coming out. Its all thanks to them that we have such a fun and interesting tool to play with. Thanks hondata! Gotta love you guys!

ModFreak
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:09 pm

Post by ModFreak » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:11 pm

Hi Bro,

Nice to hear from you. Yes, seemed like the SI map cannot be used on my ride as well (MIL link blinks 5 times everytime I turn my keys to ACC-ON). I hope Hondata will come out with Throttle Target map, coolant fan temperature function and most of the functions built into the SI calibration and fix the knock map reducing every file save issue.

Meantime I'll be reverting back to JDM calibrations. Will be missing the throttle target map and coolant fan temp settings.

engjoo
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:00 am

Post by engjoo » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:43 pm

What knock tables are you guys using ?

I am still tweaking with different MAP based calibration for FD2.

I noticed different tuners may adjust their knock tables differently. Shouldn't they be the same ?

fd2typeR
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 pm

Post by fd2typeR » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:52 pm

ModFreak wrote:Hi Bro,

Nice to hear from you. Yes, seemed like the SI map cannot be used on my ride as well (MIL link blinks 5 times everytime I turn my keys to ACC-ON). I hope Hondata will come out with Throttle Target map, coolant fan temperature function and most of the functions built into the SI calibration and fix the knock map reducing every file save issue.

Meantime I'll be reverting back to JDM calibrations. Will be missing the throttle target map and coolant fan temp settings.
do note 1 thing that if you wanna do the same, copy everything from the SI calibration over and paste to hondata jdm calibration, even if everything is same figure, but when u run on dyno, your AFR will be diff. This confirms that my JDM ecu readings differently from the SI calibrations. Over SI calibration we tuned to 13, but once copied over, i as running freaking rich as ard 10+ ratio....thus i had no choice but to retune again...

fd2typeR
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 pm

Post by fd2typeR » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:57 pm

engjoo wrote:What knock tables are you guys using ?

I am still tweaking with different MAP based calibration for FD2.

I noticed different tuners may adjust their knock tables differently. Shouldn't they be the same ?
Hi bro, i am using the default JDM hondata reflash knock table. Never adjust it before.

engjoo
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:00 am

Post by engjoo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:59 pm

fd2typeR wrote:
engjoo wrote:What knock tables are you guys using ?

I am still tweaking with different MAP based calibration for FD2.

I noticed different tuners may adjust their knock tables differently. Shouldn't they be the same ?
Hi bro, i am using the default JDM hondata reflash knock table. Never adjust it before.
OK. I am concerned that the knock table values are different between different calibrations and wonder why. Shouldn't they be the same? A knock is a knock right ?

yungming
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:25 am

Post by yungming » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:46 pm

@dallionz and ModFreak

What is your CTR manufacturer date?

The new Face Lifted FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04 ECU part number?

I am suspecting there is a changes on the ECU hardware compared to the older ECU as I am facing some problem with my customer's car as well on FL FD2R

fd2typeR
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 pm

Post by fd2typeR » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:42 pm

yungming wrote:@dallionz and ModFreak

What is your CTR manufacturer date?

The new Face Lifted FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04 ECU part number?

I am suspecting there is a changes on the ECU hardware compared to the older ECU as I am facing some problem with my customer's car as well on FL FD2R
Hi bro, mine is a FL JDM FD2R, and my ecu num is 37820-RRC-J04 too.

yungming
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:25 am

Post by yungming » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:55 pm

fd2typeR wrote:
yungming wrote:@dallionz and ModFreak

What is your CTR manufacturer date?

The new Face Lifted FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04 ECU part number?

I am suspecting there is a changes on the ECU hardware compared to the older ECU as I am facing some problem with my customer's car as well on FL FD2R
Hi bro, mine is a FL JDM FD2R, and my ecu num is 37820-RRC-J04 too.
Yes, there are pre-FL with 37820-RRC-J04 but it will not have issues with Si-Race maps

But FL-FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04, you can't use the Si-Race map as it will have engine light blinking!

I think there is a hardware changes in the FL Keihin ECU, probably the MCU used are different part from the pre-FL

fd2typeR
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 pm

Post by fd2typeR » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:33 pm

yungming wrote:
Yes, there are pre-FL with 37820-RRC-J04 but it will not have issues with Si-Race maps

But FL-FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04, you can't use the Si-Race map as it will have engine light blinking!

I think there is a hardware changes in the FL Keihin ECU, probably the MCU used are different part from the pre-FL
have to see wat's hondata's view....perhaps hondata or spunkster could enlighten us? Thanks!

yungming
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:25 am

Post by yungming » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:45 am

fd2typeR wrote:
yungming wrote:
Yes, there are pre-FL with 37820-RRC-J04 but it will not have issues with Si-Race maps

But FL-FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04, you can't use the Si-Race map as it will have engine light blinking!

I think there is a hardware changes in the FL Keihin ECU, probably the MCU used are different part from the pre-FL
have to see wat's hondata's view....perhaps hondata or spunkster could enlighten us? Thanks!
They do not have any JDM FL FD2R ECU with them

The orignal factory calibration for Pre-FL and FL are the same.

I have those calibrations with me, it's the MCU who is doing the job on the sensors feedback and algorithm calculations

ModFreak
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:09 pm

Post by ModFreak » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:14 am

Nope, mine is year end 2007, the issue I find is that everytime u open the calibration in the program, certain portions of the knock tables will reduce by itself, so if I were to edit my calibrations 10 time, the knock tables will be reduced quite a lot.

Nowadays I have to copy and past the knock tables from the Reflash calibration but it will still be lower than the actual Reflash table.

You can try it, copy the knock tables from the calibration, paste them into an Excel file, than copy the Excel cells and paste back to the same calibration u copied earlier, you will see reduction in certain areas!
yungming wrote:@dallionz and ModFreak

What is your CTR manufacturer date?

The new Face Lifted FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04 ECU part number?

I am suspecting there is a changes on the ECU hardware compared to the older ECU as I am facing some problem with my customer's car as well on FL FD2R

engjoo
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:00 am

Post by engjoo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:13 pm

ModFreak wrote:Nope, mine is year end 2007, the issue I find is that everytime u open the calibration in the program, certain portions of the knock tables will reduce by itself, so if I were to edit my calibrations 10 time, the knock tables will be reduced quite a lot.

Nowadays I have to copy and past the knock tables from the Reflash calibration but it will still be lower than the actual Reflash table.

You can try it, copy the knock tables from the calibration, paste them into an Excel file, than copy the Excel cells and paste back to the same calibration u copied earlier, you will see reduction in certain areas!
yungming wrote:@dallionz and ModFreak

What is your CTR manufacturer date?

The new Face Lifted FD2R with 37820-RRC-J04 ECU part number?

I am suspecting there is a changes on the ECU hardware compared to the older ECU as I am facing some problem with my customer's car as well on FL FD2R
There is an easier way to do this. You may right click on the table and import from another previously saved calibration (eg Honda reflashed).

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