E85 job problems.

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the FN2 European Civic Type R
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:49 am

E85 job problems.

Post by alollini »

A friend had his European FN2 type R converted to E85 fuel.

The modifications are :
using FlashPro.
550cc fuel injectors.

it is otherwise full stock.

I suggested him to do some datalogs of the real stock Honda engine working, start/stop, cold start/stop, normal driving from hot 20mn, normal driving from cold 20mn, and a 3rd gear pull from hot. (just to keep for reference) WOT up to 8200rmp the car runs AFR of 13,4 :1 with IGN of 27° and not recording any knock. and a Kcontrol around 50% constant, and A/F cruising of 14,7:1 all looks perfect, temperature, etc. vtec 5400rpm.

From there he goes to convert the car to E85, giving his car, and of course he can't see the work in progress since no one is allowed around the car.
so the injectors are swapped, a map is made for SP98 quality fuel, en the tank is emptied and E85 is placed, then a map is made for E85.

The guy said that he did not manage to reach his goal of 12.6 : 1 A/F at WOT , for some reason the A/F still reads 13.3 to 13.5

He asks for the files, as I suggested him to do.

When he goes away with the car he noticed : smooth acceleration, noticeable torque gain, no more vtec point feeling, so from there it seems okay.

Back at home he look and send me his datalog and calibration.

I am just an enthusiast and no pro, so I don't want to start criticise the work of the pro, but there I think it is a very sloppy job :
They added 4° IGN , ok I suppose it's fine? WOT up to 8600rpm ! the car runs AFR of 13,5 :1 with IGN of 31° and records some knocks
They did not use a dyno (that is not good to me)
They did not put the right 550 cc value in the fuel pane (there is 450cc) and the values of the injectors dead time are those of "stock equivalent" base calibration.
They moved vtec to 4800rpm.

The symptom is while cruising, if he do a light press on the throttle, the A/F drops for seconds to 15 - 16 , then goes back to 14,7 after strime raise.

it looks to me that this is a simple copy of a map done elsewhere they applied to him.

his AFM is not calibrated.

the fuel is added by using the Fuel trim "Overall Fuel Trim" and "Cranking Fuel Trim" where we can see values like +35% end +40%.

I see 3 different approaches possible from now :
- go back to the "pro" asking him to do his job.

- take over an making it right. (without a dyno i think it is impossible to make things perfect)

- how to check if the lambda is ok ? are there some corrections to make to the displayed values ?

I thought the right way of doing that is to :
setup the fuel parameters as on the paper that came with injectors.
calibrate AFM.v vs STRIM
then go on a dyno adjusting IGN and A/F at WOT.
while on the dyno it is a good idea to listen for the knocks and check A/F with EXTERNAL SENSORS in order to verify the behavior of the in-car sensors.

Am I wrong ?

For the moment should I suggest my friend to not use his car at all?

Why adding IGN ? is it not that Honda uses the best timing for stock motor ? E85 burns solwer ?
I head that at 12.6 fuel burns the fastest, thus requiring less IGN.
IGN and A/F are linked in a way, running a set IGN but not being at the wanted A/F is the same risk as adding too much IGN in my opinion.
A/F and temperatures are linked, if a calibration (that they copy from car to car -BAD thing- ) is ofay for A/F of 12.6 and it runs at 13.4 then it will be hotter == BAD too.

I read that when ethanol is at 50% the car need to add some IGN.
when ethanol is 70 to 100 % the car DON'T need more timing than in gasoline.
or maybe is it that some 4° more make a little power gain ?

Any way what can be read in the books is not what make a car run reliably, the only good is the solution that works for real to put miles and years on the car.

Anyway to start on a E85 conversion I would NOT add any IGN except if i can check that on a dyno with THIS car.
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