Open/Closed loop

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the FN2 European Civic Type R
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mladjan
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Open/Closed loop

Post by mladjan » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:41 am

I see that this is different then in KPro where I can set open or closed loop. I don't see this settings in flash pro.
Everything I see is ability to map WOT maps which are in open loop, and maps witch define when to switch to open loop. Am I right?
What is not clear for me, is mapping part, how I can map fuel in open loop? I see that I can enter AFR which I want in WOT, and ECU will try to reach that AFR.
I had already fine map, and I putted light flywheel, de-cat 4-2-1 manifold with 70mm exhaust. I done logging after all that changes, AFR is lets say the same, and car is running better. Is that ok? I don't need anything to change?

I attached my map and my log (sorry for bad log, its cold and wet and Im without grip in first two gears), so would like somebody to explain me, because Im confused.
GroupeN exaust - v1.3.fpcal
(18.7 KiB) Downloaded 106 times
datalog0008.fpdl
(199.57 KiB) Downloaded 82 times

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Spunkster
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by Spunkster » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:36 am

You should tune in closed loop with the primary sensor enabled like it says in the help file: https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/c ... sed%2Bloop

mladjan
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by mladjan » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:51 am

As you can see in this screenshot: http://cloud.mladjan.me/0S0z3E3I3S13
I don't have any settings for primary o2 sensor, just for secondary.
I have aftermarket wideband connected, and still have secondary o2 sensor in place.

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Spunkster
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by Spunkster » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:20 pm

Since you cannot disable the primary then you must leave it in closed loop at all times.

typer86
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by typer86 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:27 am

mladjan wrote:I see that this is different then in KPro where I can set open or closed loop. I don't see this settings in flash pro.
Everything I see is ability to map WOT maps which are in open loop, and maps witch define when to switch to open loop. Am I right?
What is not clear for me, is mapping part, how I can map fuel in open loop? I see that I can enter AFR which I want in WOT, and ECU will try to reach that AFR.
I had already fine map, and I putted light flywheel, de-cat 4-2-1 manifold with 70mm exhaust. I done logging after all that changes, AFR is lets say the same, and car is running better. Is that ok? I don't need anything to change?

I attached my map and my log (sorry for bad log, its cold and wet and Im without grip in first two gears), so would like somebody to explain me, because Im confused.

GroupeN exaust - v1.3.fpcal
datalog0008.fpdl
You must adjust the AFMfuel in the menu fuel in your calibration after reviewing XY graph (AFM.c vs S.trim). In the menu Lambda you will see the ECU targeted lambda values for the different loads/temps in closed loop.

For high load (WOT openloop) (high cam) you need also to adjust the AFMfuel and keep the eye of the lambda values! For natural aspirated the targeted lambda value in WOT is 0.85 for max power.

The indicator when the ECU will switch from closed loop into the open loop.
Important note: Do not use values above 12.50 (AF) or 0.85 (lambda), otherwise the ECU will always run closed loop.
source: https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/i ... ection.htm

Will this answer your question?

mladjan
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by mladjan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:21 am

I think I figured out :)

Because this car will be soon supercharged and I will use MAP based calibration, I would like to know what are the suggested AFRs and ignition angles? On what I should take care?

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Hondata
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by Hondata » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:59 pm

With pump fuel the air/fuel should be around 11.25:1. Ignition depends on the boost, cams and exhaust system. The K20 and K24 four port heads usually want around 14-16 degrees on the low cam and 16-18 degrees on the high cam at low boost on pump gas. The mono port heads need about 10-12 degrees less as they detonate easily. The fuel octane makes a big different, so these are guidelines.
Hondata

mladjan
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by mladjan » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:27 am

That's the answer I needed! :)
I have 4-2-1 manifold with 70mm the rest of the exhaust (it has space to breathe). Intake will be cold air from front bumper (custom made), but intake manifold, throttle body etc is stock. Fuel I use is pump fuel with 100 octane value (there are 95, 98 and 100 in my city)
I will try to map this to work on 100, or maybe 98-100)
Boost will be under 1bar, will be using shaftdrive kit: http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/civic- ... dc252b2664
With C38-81 rotrex charger and 110mm pulley. This should be under 14psi of boost

typer86
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by typer86 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:07 am

mladjan wrote:That's the answer I needed! :)
I have 4-2-1 manifold with 70mm the rest of the exhaust (it has space to breathe). Intake will be cold air from front bumper (custom made), but intake manifold, throttle body etc is stock. Fuel I use is pump fuel with 100 octane value (there are 95, 98 and 100 in my city)
I will try to map this to work on 100, or maybe 98-100)
Boost will be under 1bar, will be using shaftdrive kit: http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/civic- ... dc252b2664
With C38-81 rotrex charger and 110mm pulley. This should be under 14psi of boost
Are u sure @ 14psi with C38-81 charger? The 30-94 arrive 14psi@8200/8300 rpm :D with 100mm pulley.
I think the bigger blower C38-81 (best blower :D) makes 20-25psi of boost @ 8xxx rpm...

I am very interested on a 3gear WOT pull until to the rev limiter with your build.

mladjan
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by mladjan » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:00 am

I bough it because its a little difference in price, but it give me option to put forged internals in some point of time. Right now my engine has only 40k km on clock and I will not open it until I need :)

Richard from TTS told me: "We have 2 sizes of pulley for the shaft, the bigger one will run slower this should limit to around 15 psi, if this is still to much then we can supply an air restrictor for the inlet of the supercharger."

typer86
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by typer86 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:15 am

Only in high rpm the K20 must be saved if the rotrex push hard (after overboost to 15+psi)
This could be done to limit the max opening of the throttle easily ;)

To determine the max opening you can start low. (see pic at the end...)

For example:
If the C38 target with 100mm pulley make 19PSI @ 8600 rpm @ 100% throttle, the max opening of the throttle must be restricted.
Theoretical calc:
If you focus max. 15PSI @ 100% throttle you can do the following:
19PSI = 100%
15PSI = x%
Result: 80% -3% offset (to ensure to save the engine) = 77% max opening

!Example target throttle adjustment to limit the boost in the flashpro...:
throttle-15psi.PNG
throttle-15psi.PNG (104.59 KiB) Viewed 4787 times
The cool thing with the C38kit is, you have 15PSI in a long rpm band.... And you hit max boost also in low and mid rpm but in high boost the MAP will be reduced to close the throttle constantly. :-)

Please note all is theoretical.
I don't know the real flow from the charger so the pic of the hondata throttle adjustment is only a mockup...

honda_racer07
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Re: Open/Closed loop

Post by honda_racer07 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:42 pm

You must adjust the AFMfuel in the menu fuel in your calibration after reviewing XY graph (AFM.c vs S.trim). In the menu Lambda you will see the ECU targeted lambda values for the different loads/temps in closed loop.

For high load (WOT openloop) (high cam) you need also to adjust the AFMfuel and keep the eye of the lambda values! For natural aspirated the targeted lambda value in WOT is 0.85 for max power.

The indicator when the ECU will switch from closed loop into the open loop.
Important note: Do not use values above 12.50 (AF) or 0.85 (lambda), otherwise the ECU will always run closed loop.
source: https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/i ... ection.htm

So I’m kinda new to this and I understand about adjusting the fuel low and high tables but in the wot lambda tables are you saying to set the whole table to 12.5?

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