Flashpro and evap shut valve

FlashPro Manager software
Hybrid_Hatch
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by Hybrid_Hatch » Thu May 30, 2013 9:31 pm

I will tell you this much, every car in my area that is on FP and running a race cal (map calibration, 12 cars so far) was having the same issue of the fuel tank collapsing. I do know the evap purge valve is staying wide open while the car is running allowing vacuum to be drawn the hole time the car is running, the evap shut valve is also staying closed so the tank has no vent to it while running, cars with aftermarket gas caps that hold pressure but allow inward air still suck the tank in, but will release once the vacuum over comes the caps vent check valve. I also converted a map on a turbo charged fg2 and his tank was sucking in while in vacuum (low cruise) and was expanding while under boost. I think everyone running a map based calibration should at the very least jack the rear of the car up and let it idle and see if the tank is collapsing, better to find out in the garage than take the risk of the fuel tank cracking/breaking while driving.

Hybrid_Hatch
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by Hybrid_Hatch » Thu May 30, 2013 9:35 pm

this was a friend car after idling for 5 minutes, notice the center and side strap has a nice sized gap, before we started the car the tank was sitting dead flat on those straps. BTW: his car made no funny noises as he has a good condition OEM honda gas cap which will not release and let air in so he never knew anything was wrong, Also, all the cars I converted no longer has a fuel gauge fluctuation as the tank is now staying the same size at all times, if you disconnect the evap shut valve at the tank on a race calibration it will allow the vent to stay open at all times and the gas gauge works proper as well, but the car will run richer as its no longer fighting the tanks vacuum and the fuel pump is free to do its job.

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VitViper
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by VitViper » Thu May 30, 2013 11:58 pm

Hondata wrote:mucter, VitViper; I've only ever had one report of this issue here (who did not follow through), so I do not think it affects thousands of users. I'll look into this if you're willing to narrow down the source of the problem.
Every single person who I've ever tuned on a "race" calibration has a problem with the gas gauge fluctuating -- they complain about it all the time -- I've tested the Civic cals on my stock 2011 Si vs the Race cal, and the information Hybrid_Hatch has provided is accurate -- everything works as intended with the Civic cals. I have no idea why the Evap system doesn't want to work right on the "Race" cals, but I have many customers from years ago that are on these calibrations and a fix would be appreciated.

It would also be nice to have the TC features that are on the Civic cals to be in the Race cals as my 08 Si is essentially a race car and I do not have the time or motivation to redo the map on the Civic based clibrations.

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Hondata
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by Hondata » Fri May 31, 2013 9:42 am

You haven't answered my question as to narrowing down the problem.

I've got a forced induction vehicle which does not exhibit this problem on either Race or AFM calibrations, so I can assure you that it does not affect 100% of vehicles.

You may have guessed that our development effort is concentrated on the AFM/MAP calibrations, as they are useful for all cars rather than a subset, so you would be best to use only those calibrations for new customers.
Hondata

VitViper
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by VitViper » Fri May 31, 2013 5:15 pm

Hondata wrote:You haven't answered my question as to narrowing down the problem.
I'm not sure what else you would like me to do? I tested this on my bone stock 2011 a couple weeks back and the Race calibration exhibited the problem -- put it on an AFM cal and no problem.
Hondata wrote: I've got a forced induction vehicle which does not exhibit this problem on either Race or AFM calibrations, so I can assure you that it does not affect 100% of vehicles.
I actually just finished turbo'ing my 2011 and loaded a race cal on accident for the F/I application -- had 2 bars of fuel on the gauge, dropped to zero the moment the race cal loaded. Loaded a revised AFM/MAP (Civic) calibration and wow my fuel level went back to normal... weird? Hybrid_hatch has related the gas gauge fluctuation to the tank sucking up, maybe this is the case?
Hondata wrote: You may have guessed that our development effort is concentrated on the AFM/MAP calibrations, as they are useful for all cars rather than a subset, so you would be best to use only those calibrations for new customers.
I have been doing that going forward, but what about all the people using Race cals historically? This problem isn't a big deal going forward as the Civic cals are nicer... but we can't be leaving people hanging.

Hybrid_Hatch
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by Hybrid_Hatch » Fri May 31, 2013 9:34 pm

Hondata wrote:I've got a forced induction vehicle which does not exhibit this problem on either Race or AFM calibrations, so I can assure you that it does not affect 100% of vehicles.
I don't think it will affect 100% of the cars out there, a venting (bad) fuel cap will help stop the problem, a leaky evap system will stop the problem and a disabled evap purge valve will reduce the problem, big cam'ed motors will reduce the problem and evap system removed and return line system added will stop the problem, but for those with cars that everything is up and functional in factory like condition, it will have the problems.

all-black
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by all-black » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:30 pm

i spent about a grand on a fuel system that uses an external pump to flow the volume of fuel i needed for my setup.... due to these issues with the evap system on race cals which i didnt know of the pump would cavitate due to the vacuum created in the tank..... only way to alleviate the problem i found was to leave the gas cap off....pure bull in my opinion. i changed back to using a internal pump setup but still isnt perfect due to the vacuum in the tank. the civic cals aare not the same no matter how much smoke and mirrors you say there the same there not the car drive ability is much better on race cals

VitViper
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by VitViper » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:32 pm

The vehicle drivability is actually WAY better on the AFM cals.

all-black
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by all-black » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:11 pm

idk i havnt had much luck, car seems to have a lot more rev hang.... have you found a good way to switch from a race cal to afm

VitViper
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by VitViper » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:34 pm

The best way is just to build a new tune, copy & pasting your fuel/ignition maps from the race cal and the retuning the fuel completely. My turbo 2011 Si is done with the AFM calibration and it is very nice.

ajpturbopittsburgh
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:40 pm

Vit, why do you have to retune the fuel tables if you copy and paste the values to the new afm tune? Isn't that the idea of copy and paste, so that they are the same?

My car has been running fine as far as I know but now I need to check my fuel tank sometime.

I have a return style fuel system in the car so I'm not sure if that alleviates this problem or not.

What is the best AFM hybrid cal to use when converting from a MAP tune? I have 650cc injecectors. And I originally use the MAP based tune with expanded tables for boost. I'm guessing it doesn't matter so much as long as I make sure the correct injector size and fuel pressure settings are set when I pick the afm. I'm thinking just use the RRB stock tuned?..All of the AFM tunes only list the 310cc injectors

I noticed the fuel type scalar looks different in the contents as it does in the tune.

Should both boxes be checked for AFM and use MAP fuel tables? Or just one or the other? I'm guessing both. Keep the box for enable afm checked so you have IAT compensations

My box is checked in misc for purge/evap venting. So this tells me that is should vent. So is that functionality not always working?

mucter
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by mucter » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:30 pm

The injector scaler uses different ratios in the AFM cals, thus making copy/paste not 1:1. The higher the pulse width, the greater the discrepancy.

VitViper
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by VitViper » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:17 pm

Hybrid_Hatch wrote:
Hondata wrote:I've got a forced induction vehicle which does not exhibit this problem on either Race or AFM calibrations, so I can assure you that it does not affect 100% of vehicles.
I don't think it will affect 100% of the cars out there, a venting (bad) fuel cap will help stop the problem, a leaky evap system will stop the problem and a disabled evap purge valve will reduce the problem, big cam'ed motors will reduce the problem and evap system removed and return line system added will stop the problem, but for those with cars that everything is up and functional in factory like condition, it will have the problems.
^ This has proven to be true. I'm seeing several customers with bad fuel caps (once they are on the AFM calibrations they throw a bad gas cap CEL).

soxfan143
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by soxfan143 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:10 pm

Whoa! So what the hell is the solution? I've been out of the loop for so long. I knew something wasn't right about the EVAP system but I never looked any deeper. This explains the terrible idle sometimes and the weird crap that happens at part throttle. Is Hondata working on a fix for this?

nunoctr
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Re: Flashpro and evap shut valve

Post by nunoctr » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:50 am

Hondata wrote:You haven't answered my question as to narrowing down the problem.

I've got a forced induction vehicle which does not exhibit this problem on either Race or AFM calibrations, so I can assure you that it does not affect 100% of vehicles.

You may have guessed that our development effort is concentrated on the AFM/MAP calibrations, as they are useful for all cars rather than a subset, so you would be best to use only those calibrations for new customers.

Hondata, why have the AFM calibrations with MAP fuel for the USA civic SI more tables than the Civic Fn2 type R AFM calibrations with MAP fuel.
Can't you do both the same? (for example radiator fan on/off temperature, many of the compensation tables, first gear dampening, etc)

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