Engine wont rev past 6800rpm when boosting 9psi

[foca_]

Hi there everyone!

I am programming the flashpro for this guy that put the pieces together. I dont completely agree with the setup... but he´s a mechanic, and wont listen.
Car is an entirely stock 2007 civic Si, fitted with a GT25, watercooler and a piggyback for extra fuel on boost. (yeah, doesnt make sense).
Well, as you may expect, he was having trouble with the engine knocking as soon as it saw some boost, but he couldnt manage to make the flashpro work at all.
Thats where i come in ... make it work, installed a 4 bar map he bought and all...

Everything was going well up to 5psi ... then we boosted up to 9psi ... car would stall at 6800rpm ... no knocking ... it is a hard cut, possibly coming from ignition or Throttle Plate deliberately closing... thought also could be a protection for way too high injector duty cycle, but dont know if the ECU even does that. Even have read about lean protection, but cant seem to find that option in FlashPro Manager.
Well, this is my first time with a Hondata... i am only used to other universal standalones ...
I´ll attach 2 datalogs and the calibration file.

Anyone willing to give me a hand here, id really appreciate it.

[Spunkster]

It appears to be running dangerously lean at the higher boot levels.

[foca_]

It appears to be running dangerously lean at the higher boot levels.

Does the ECU have a protection for that? Cause i dont have the chance to see lean figures, but i wouldnt discard the possibility.
I know 15ms duty cycle is way to high and unreal ... i was wondering if theres a protection for that and wont let injection times over 15ms or so ... i havent really been paying attention to those times since i manage fuel from a piggyback with and additional injector.
Again, i know it doesnt make sense, but i dont build the car, ... im just tuning it.

[VitViper]

It appears to be running dangerously lean at the higher boot levels.

Does the ECU have a protection for that? Cause i dont have the chance to see lean figures, but i wouldnt discard the possibility.
I know 15ms duty cycle is way to high and unreal ... i was wondering if theres a protection for that and wont let injection times over 15ms or so ... i havent really been paying attention to those times since i manage fuel from a piggyback with and additional injector.
Again, i know it doesnt make sense, but i dont build the car, ... im just tuning it.

No there is no lean protect in the ECU. Your MAP sensor signal is cutting out at those RPM's pointing to either an electrical/map sensor problem or some massive boost leak as you get into the high revs.


BTW, you're crazy for even loading that map onto the car with that setup, it is absolutely NOT a basemap for a turbo car. It's simply and N/A map with the load columns scaled for boost. IE: starting to TUNE, not to romp on the car through the gears. You're literally driving a ticking time bomb that's slowly been melting away your engine internals due to the poor AFR and detonation.

[foca_]

It appears to be running dangerously lean at the higher boot levels.

Does the ECU have a protection for that? Cause i dont have the chance to see lean figures, but i wouldnt discard the possibility.
I know 15ms duty cycle is way to high and unreal ... i was wondering if theres a protection for that and wont let injection times over 15ms or so ... i havent really been paying attention to those times since i manage fuel from a piggyback with and additional injector.
Again, i know it doesnt make sense, but i dont build the car, ... im just tuning it.

No there is no lean protect in the ECU. Your MAP sensor signal is cutting out at those RPM's pointing to either an electrical/map sensor problem or some massive boost leak as you get into the high revs.


BTW, you're crazy for even loading that map onto the car with that setup, it is absolutely NOT a basemap for a turbo car. It's simply and N/A map with the load columns scaled for boost. IE: starting to TUNE, not to romp on the car through the gears. You're literally driving a ticking time bomb that's slowly been melting away your engine internals due to the poor AFR and detonation.

There is no MAP signal problem. I have tried 2 MAP sensors and checked the wiring. Please expand that thought on the boost leak.

On the other half... see im not relying on the fuel map for AFR... im using a piggyback, so the scaled map should be ok for the time being. About ignition, i did modify it where i thought there was too much spark advance, id probably need to back it up a lil bit, but i have to solve that stall first.

Any other ideas of what could be causing this problem?

[VitViper]

The obvious answer is the garbage piggy back. Remove it and use the FlashPro as it was intended to be used. And the O2 sensor doesn't lie, you're dangerously lean.

[ajpturbopittsburgh]

[quote="foca_"]

There is no MAP signal problem. I have tried 2 MAP sensors and checked the wiring. Please expand that thought on the boost leak.

On the other half... see im not relying on the fuel map for AFR... im using a piggyback, so the scaled map should be ok for the time being. About ignition, i did modify it where i thought there was too much spark advance, id probably need to back it up a lil bit, but i have to solve that stall first.

Any other ideas of what could be causing this problem?[/quote


WOW. Dude please listen to vit and spunk before you blow your customer's car up. Don't fight them just listen lol.....Take the piggyback off, even though it's not your car as a business ower or a tuner for hire that's a job you shouldn't take. That has to be the worst running car on the planet. No piggy back needed if you have the ability to reflash the stock ecu, which you do.

It's scary that there are actually tuners out there that will do things like this. You should be going easy at first do a pull to 2500rpm or 3k and see how everything looks before you go all out. You say you need to solve the stall first before you back up ignition? Well if you blow it up you won't have to worry about the stall at all lol!

You ask what OTHER ideas could be causing this? I'd start by getting rid of that piggy back and taking a class. And if you are going to tell me you've tuned many other cars then I'd say you are blessed. You are a tooner lol. Sorry if this offends you are sounds harsh but damn man I'm not even a pro and your logic and process sounds flawed in so many way and your questions and posts make you sound like you have no idea....If you don't know vit that posted here please listen to him

The lean protection is you precisely creating fuel tables, that's part of what "tuning" is. If it were that easy you could just enter in all the tables run 11.0 afr when in boost and pull timing if the knock sensors hear knock lol, we all could tune and would have to pay people that rip us off lol.

[ajpturbopittsburgh]

I just looked at the log...The calibration is useless since you have the piggy back....No way to know what the piggyback is doing on top of the flashpro calibration.

You said there was no knocking. There was 38 counts right off the back. The fact that this motor didn't explode is a testament to the K series lol....Dude, you were running 14's and 16's AFR multiple times while over 8 psi in the log labeled 9 psi and there were actually times when you were over 11 psi. 2 psi is a big difference and if you don't think so then that's another example of you being in over your head with tuning. 2 psi on my setup can be 40 HP difference. Don't you look to see if you are safe before moving on? It's hard for me even to imagine this. The fact that you kept hitting the gas tells me that you are in way over your head and that you don't understand why a piggy back isn't required when you can program the stock ECU with software that is more than capable of making changes for forced induction.

Take it off please!

[foca_]

Hi there everyone! Shame on me, i know... but please, before hitting me this hard, take this into consideration.

1- The car owner has a shop and doesnt want to let go the piggyback.
2- I wasnt driving the car as stated in some comments, the guy just floors it and wont even look at the shitty AFR meter.
3- I was relying in (what i see now is) a faulty NarrowBand A/F meter cause the guy won´t buy a wideband.
4- Being the guy a mechanic, doesnt really accept many suggestions... thinks the build is alright.
5- I consider timing is not far from the values it needs... but then again, owner is keeping the IAT sensor at the turbo Inlet... and i suspect intake temps are way too high due to the watercooler´s placement and small radiator. Turbo is small... i wouldnt be surprised in seeing IATemps in the neighborhood of 85°C. Add that to the lean condition.
6- No FPR has been installed... stock fuel line is feeding a TB injector, driven by the piggyback... i wouldnt be surprised either that the injector stuck for working at higher pressures than it was designed.

See, everything is pretty much f*cked up, i shouldnt have accepted the job under these circumstances anyways.
However i do now notice through the logs (didnt realize i could add other variables to the graph), that the car´s been knocking and has been extremely lean.
This engine sure can withstand a stupid amount of harmful beating...

Thanks for being severe on the comments, and will try to make the owner buy bigger injectors and throw away the piggyback, place the IAT where it belongs and use a wideband AFR meter.
So we would be able to conclude that the engine is stalling due to extremely lean conditions under boost, right?

[ajpturbopittsburgh]

The build may not be so bad. But the tuner is definitely a problem. Why would you think it needs bigger injectors? You don't even know where to start...I'm convince this is a joke...now I feel stupid lol.

He doesn't need to buy a wideband, the car already has one...You just need to know how to read and execute data logs.

You considered that the timing is close to what it needs to be? I saw 3 degrees in some spots...The car will explode soon.

This is funny...This is why people tell me turbo's blow cars up....Bad tuning blows cars up lol

This is just plain wrong and dysfunctional on so many levels I can't take it....Foca please stop this..You are not a tuner and need training before attempting on a real car..You could hurt someone if the car blows up next to someone else or a bystandard. The driver could potentially lose control...This is not a joke....

[foca_]

The build may not be so bad. But the tuner is definitely a problem. Why would you think it needs bigger injectors? You don't even know where to start...I'm convince this is a joke...now I feel stupid lol.

He doesn't need to buy a wideband, the car already has one...You just need to know how to read and execute data logs.

You considered that the timing is close to what it needs to be? I saw 3 degrees in some spots...The car will explode soon.

This is funny...This is why people tell me turbo's blow cars up....Bad tuning blows cars up lol

This is just plain wrong and dysfunctional on so many levels I can't take it....Foca please stop this..You are not a tuner and need training before attempting on a real car..You could hurt someone if the car blows up next to someone else or a bystandard. The driver could potentially lose control...This is not a joke....

I do not consider myself a professional tuner. I am assuming you are and id like to ask if you seriously think i can run 10psi on a k20 with stock 310cc/min injectors @ 8500rpm and still be able to maintain a 0.8 lambda reading WOT.
I give you that one on the wideband sensor equipped on the car, however it is not entirely accurate, but good enough for what i need.
There are no 3 degree spots in any of the tables. Engine´s been knocking, sure, but things need to be rearranged to be able to read IAT...
I might need training on Hondata, sure ... it sure is funny for you... engine is still intact (thank god).
Just trying to make this right, making fun of me is not helping that much... it sure shows how much you know about the subject, but please, try to keep it cool and help out.
Thanks

[ajpturbopittsburgh]

I mentioned before I'm not a pro tuner. You, however mentioned that you accepted the job and shouldn't have. This is getting harder for me to understand.

You actually hit 2 degrees during one of the pulls. And I'm not sure what TABLES you are talking about. The flashpro tables or what ever tables you have in the piggy backs software....Are you starting to see the problem with this setup? The car's ecu has no idea why things are happening because it's can't and won't understand the piggy back.

And actually the wideband in the car is quite accurate. You just can't seem to say anything right.

You have a tiny turbo on the car. Running at 5-8 psi the injectors may not be as inadequate as you think. But you have idea because the data logs are terrible. Why are you concerned with .80 lambda? You were running 16.0 AFR at 11 psi LOL!!!


The IAT's are not your problem now. I ran mine for a couple years with the sensor in the turbo inlet before I relocated to post intercooler. You need fuel tuning before it blows up....Not a joke. If your spark compensation tables are set up correctly the ECU should pull timing when things get hot.

Still amazing that people will risk blowing an expensive engine and drop all the money on mods and turbos but not give a tuner 200 bucks to remote tune a car or 500 to drop it off at a shop with a known tuner and pick it up a couple days later completely tuned!

But they make for great stories lol! Got any vids on you tube of this beast running? I'd like to check it out. Tell him he needs another piggy back to help the other one.

[VitViper]

Hi there everyone! Shame on me, i know... but please, before hitting me this hard, take this into consideration.

1- The car owner has a shop and doesnt want to let go the piggyback.

The owner of the vehicle is an idiot. Sometimes the best thing to do with idiots is to send them on their way elsewhere so they can blow their car up on someone elses dime.

2- I wasnt driving the car as stated in some comments, the guy just floors it and wont even look at the shitty AFR meter.

Same response as #1

3- I was relying in (what i see now is) a faulty NarrowBand A/F meter cause the guy won´t buy a wideband.

Lol what? The vehicle comes equipped with a wideband accurate to about 11.0 afr, if it's kept fresh (no O2 sensor lasts years and stays "accurate").

4- Being the guy a mechanic, doesnt really accept many suggestions... thinks the build is alright.

Same answer as #1, lots of such "mechanics". Sometimes the best way to deal with close minded individuals is to refund their money and wish them good luck.

5- I consider timing is not far from the values it needs... but then again, owner is keeping the IAT sensor at the turbo Inlet... and i suspect intake temps are way too high due to the watercooler´s placement and small radiator. Turbo is small... i wouldnt be surprised in seeing IATemps in the neighborhood of 85°C. Add that to the lean condition.

Some people can't/won't do this, but I'll just put it bluntly: the whole map is trash. Timing map is trash, cam map is trash, fuel map is trash, even VTEC point isn't set properly.

6- No FPR has been installed... stock fuel line is feeding a TB injector, driven by the piggyback... i wouldnt be surprised either that the injector stuck for working at higher pressures than it was designed.

The vehicle absolutely does not need an FPR or a fuel line upgrade. I regularly make 450-500whp on a STOCK fuel system with nothing more than injectors & a fuel pump.

See, everything is pretty much f*cked up, i shouldnt have accepted the job under these circumstances anyways.
However i do now notice through the logs (didnt realize i could add other variables to the graph), that the car´s been knocking and has been extremely lean.
This engine sure can withstand a stupid amount of harmful beating...

Sigh... lol.

Thanks for being severe on the comments, and will try to make the owner buy bigger injectors and throw away the piggyback, place the IAT where it belongs and use a wideband AFR meter.
So we would be able to conclude that the engine is stalling due to extremely lean conditions under boost, right?

This guy sounds like a customer I had a while back, that since he had a "small" turbo he assumed he could run the stock 310cc injectors. I kindly informed him that's not the case, refunded him and sent him on his way with best wishes and a smile. If you can't do it right, don't bother doing it at all. Sounds like something you should think about.

And no, it's not cutting out because of a lean condition. I already told you, your map sensor signal cuts out and the car actually goes full rich, pointing to probably the piggy back doing stupid shit.

[Bills07si]

Vit has tuned more 8th , 9th gens then anyone out there. He knows k series and flashpro in and out , #1 tuner . Listen to what he's saying .

[foca_]

Hi there everyone! Shame on me, i know... but please, before hitting me this hard, take this into consideration.

1- The car owner has a shop and doesnt want to let go the piggyback.

The owner of the vehicle is an idiot. Sometimes the best thing to do with idiots is to send them on their way elsewhere so they can blow their car up on someone elses dime.

2- I wasnt driving the car as stated in some comments, the guy just floors it and wont even look at the shitty AFR meter.

Same response as #1

3- I was relying in (what i see now is) a faulty NarrowBand A/F meter cause the guy won´t buy a wideband.

Lol what? The vehicle comes equipped with a wideband accurate to about 11.0 afr, if it's kept fresh (no O2 sensor lasts years and stays "accurate").

4- Being the guy a mechanic, doesnt really accept many suggestions... thinks the build is alright.

Same answer as #1, lots of such "mechanics". Sometimes the best way to deal with close minded individuals is to refund their money and wish them good luck.

5- I consider timing is not far from the values it needs... but then again, owner is keeping the IAT sensor at the turbo Inlet... and i suspect intake temps are way too high due to the watercooler´s placement and small radiator. Turbo is small... i wouldnt be surprised in seeing IATemps in the neighborhood of 85°C. Add that to the lean condition.

Some people can't/won't do this, but I'll just put it bluntly: the whole map is trash. Timing map is trash, cam map is trash, fuel map is trash, even VTEC point isn't set properly.

6- No FPR has been installed... stock fuel line is feeding a TB injector, driven by the piggyback... i wouldnt be surprised either that the injector stuck for working at higher pressures than it was designed.

The vehicle absolutely does not need an FPR or a fuel line upgrade. I regularly make 450-500whp on a STOCK fuel system with nothing more than injectors & a fuel pump.

See, everything is pretty much f*cked up, i shouldnt have accepted the job under these circumstances anyways.
However i do now notice through the logs (didnt realize i could add other variables to the graph), that the car´s been knocking and has been extremely lean.
This engine sure can withstand a stupid amount of harmful beating...

Sigh... lol.

Thanks for being severe on the comments, and will try to make the owner buy bigger injectors and throw away the piggyback, place the IAT where it belongs and use a wideband AFR meter.
So we would be able to conclude that the engine is stalling due to extremely lean conditions under boost, right?

This guy sounds like a customer I had a while back, that since he had a "small" turbo he assumed he could run the stock 310cc injectors. I kindly informed him that's not the case, refunded him and sent him on his way with best wishes and a smile. If you can't do it right, don't bother doing it at all. Sounds like something you should think about.

And no, it's not cutting out because of a lean condition. I already told you, your map sensor signal cuts out and the car actually goes full rich, pointing to probably the piggy back doing stupid shit.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Would you please explain a little bit more about the VTEC point, cam and ignition tables? Just some tips, would be nice. Good to know the map is trash, im sure we would all be pleased to be enlightened with some info.