06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only pls)

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2006-2009 (US, UK, Asia) S2000
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jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only pls)

Post by jun1or »

CLIFF NOTES: Turbo AP2 06+, 95%+ duty cycle on e85, return-less style fuel system, recommended options to alleviate?

Precursor: Been searching and researching galore for returnless fuel upgrade options, would like input on retaining returnless fuel solutions to reach 480-500whp.
Precursor #2 - I'm an avid Hondata self-tuner (3 years, 35+ tunes on s300/Flashpro/etc...), so please only provide input if you have AEM/Flashpro running 06+ RETURNLESS fuel setups.

Current setup:
  • 2006 AP2, stock block (oem headgasket)
  • Hondata Flashpro
  • FBM stage 2 kit http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/830621- ... -turbo-kit
  • ID1000 Injectors
  • Full Blown FB340 Fuel Pump
  • e85 fuel only
  • FBM sidewinder mani
  • PTE5857 journal
  • 10.5 psi --> 8.5 psi @ redline
  • 432whp/317wtq (good numbers for e85 on this mid frame turbo, I realize that)
  • 3" downpipe into stock exhaust (thus the drop from 10.5 to 8.5psi, not my issue/question currently)
  • Problem #1 - I'm hitting 95% duty cycle at 6500 rpm (10psi) and 100% duty cycle from 6900-8000 rpm (10.5 to 8.5 psi gradual drop, intentional)
  • Problem #2 - LJ (phenominal tuner at Full Blown Motorsports) set my FP calibration to 900cc injectors (actual = 1000cc) w/ *25% overall fuel trim add) Which I've learned is bad per this http://www.hondata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13479
  • Question #1 - Is it a good idea to raise fuel presure with a fuel pump rewire to ~14v? (pros/cons/alternatives {including going fuel return system})
  • Question #2 - Will a Flashpro retune help the 100% duty cycle? (SPECIFICALLY by eliminating the dreaded overall fuel trim value and implementing that into main low/high fuel tables) / again I reference this Hondata Forum thread http://www.hondata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13479
I can post .cal and datalogs for those in the know...

Many thanks to informed and experienced tuners' responses.

jun1or

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Last edited by jun1or on Fri May 31, 2013 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

.fpcal attached
.fpdl attached
Attachments
05-27-13 v5 after adding fuel up top.fpdl
(273.17 KiB) Downloaded 399 times
S2000 v6 - added fuel cold start.fpcal
(9.14 KiB) Downloaded 371 times

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

Well, I'll answer my own thread as this really isn't the best place to ask such questions.

The 06+ DBW s2000 has a return-less fuel system, which is the bottleneck of this setup since effective fuel pressure is dropped by every pound of opposing force placed upon the injector (boost).

I've found two solutions:
1.) KB Boost-a-pump (increases voltage to injectors under boost).
2.) Inline pro, OEM, or custom fuel return setup, so that a rising rate FPR can be installed.

I've gone with option 1, but will most likely also go with option #2.

Mike

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

jun1or wrote:Well, I'll answer my own thread as this really isn't the best place to ask such questions.

The 06+ DBW s2000 has a return-less fuel system, which is the bottleneck of this setup since effective fuel pressure is dropped by every pound of opposing force placed upon the injector (boost).

I've found two solutions:
1.) KB Boost-a-pump (increases voltage to injectors under boost).
2.) Inline pro, OEM, or custom fuel return setup, so that a rising rate FPR can be installed.

I've gone with option 1, but will most likely also go with option #2.

Mike
After going with option #1, I am not pleased with the results.

The Boost-A-Pump works by adding voltage to the fuel pump when boost is greater than 5psi (up to 17.5v).

I dyno'd my car last night and had it fully retuned with the KB BAP at 100% (17.5v at the pump, verified with fluke multimeter while on the dyno).

Summary: the returnless fuel systems suffer greatly from opposing forces of boost on injectors as we cannot run rising rate fuel pressure regulators on this setup. Doug said it best in this video (1:30 to 3:00 timestamp)

So... I thought I'd see what the 40amp KB BAP could do to help give a little more power. Didn't get much, even on 100% setting on the KB BAP. (I even hardwired the BAP to the battery).

I know there are plenty of guys running these devices, anybody have good luck? I'd imagine it's a lot more beneficial once I have the PROPER FUEL RETURN SETUP.

Mike

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paulom
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:15 pm

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by paulom »

Why don´t you try 2200 cc injectors ?
It´s in the limit for E100 @ 12 psi 80% DC
In E85 you would have more room.
My friend´s car uses a 4.2 bar FPR , walbro 300 with EFR70XX, Civic Si.

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

paulom wrote:Why don´t you try 2200 cc injectors ?
It´s in the limit for E100 @ 12 psi 80% DC
In E85 you would have more room.
My friend´s car uses a 4.2 bar FPR , walbro 300 with EFR70XX, Civic Si.
The reason that larger injectors do not help is that static fuel pressure drops regardless of injector size, given opposing force of boost upon the injector. It also affects atomization, which to some is of a lesser concern. They say the best way to learn is by mistake (others say trial and error), I say the glass is half full.

My point is that larger injectors may help, as did the KB Boost-a-pump, to a small extent. I prefer room to grow *via better methods* i.e. fuel return line.

My 2c

Mike

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

8 months later, I installed a fuel return setup from Science of Speed a couple days ago. Couldn't be happier.

Doug said it best in this video (1:30 to 3:00 timestamp)

You can still squeeze mid 400's out of the returnless setup, but it's kinda a pain to tune, and inconsistent, as fuel pressure drops significantly while under boost.

YMMV.

Mike

paulom
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:15 pm

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by paulom »

Just today I saw this :)

I still can tune without fuel return
My car with 3071 is making 420whp with no intercooler.
My friend´s car with Full Race EFR 500 whp+

But were are using the bosch 2200 , Walbro 410 lph and 4.3 fuel regulator from flex brazilian flex fuel Civic
DC is no more than 70% with Ethanol. And It´s a lot of fuel when tuning with it.

Fuel injectors likes to work at 3 bar. And at low fuel pressure, there´s a lot of fuel flowing.
With 1 bar in turbo, the fuel pressure drops to 3.3 bar in the returnless system.
It´s still works fine.

Cheers

Paulo
Last edited by paulom on Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

paulom wrote:Just today I saw this :)

I still can tune without fuel return
My car with 3071 is making 420whp with no intercooler.
My friend´s car with Full Race EFR 500 whp+

But were are using the bosch 2200 , Walbro 410 lph and 4.3 fuel regulator from flex brazilian flex fuel Civic
No more than 70% with Ethanol. And It´s a lot of fuel when tuning with it.

Fuel injectors likes to work at 3 bar. And at low fuel pressure, there´s a lot of fuel flowing.
With 1 bar in turbo, the fuel pressure drops to 3.3 bar in the returnless system.
It´s still works fine.

Cheers

Paulo
I hit 440 on e85 (tested as e79 winter blend), but if you want to make big power you really need the fuel return line. I upped static fuel pressure a tad and now have tons more headroom on only ID1000's.

Under 450, keep it simple, no return needed. 450+ do it right, it's not that hard. My 2c.

Mike

paulom
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:15 pm

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by paulom »

hondataDC.PNG
hondataDC.PNG (7.66 KiB) Viewed 9236 times
Just to show how there´s room for more :)

jun1or
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:09 am

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by jun1or »

paulom wrote:Just to show how there´s room for more :)
More than one way to skin a cat, yes. I hear the RSX guys use a FPR crusher to squeeze a little more.

I figure Honda did it good enough in the AP2v1 S2k, so I used all those OEM parts (SoS kit).

Here are my before and after duty cycles at the same track, same fuel, one year time has passed. (Short track / HPDE lapping day type event)

Keep in mind this is ID1000's
e85 fuel both events
Top Chart Return-style fuel setup.
Bottom Chart Returnless (ouch 100% duty!)
DUTY cycle sensor overlay
Attachments
S2000 Duty cycles before and after fuel return.jpg
S2000 Duty cycles before and after fuel return.jpg (240.06 KiB) Viewed 9235 times

paulom
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:15 pm

Re: 06+ turbo, fuel upgrade options (flashpro/aem 06+ only p

Post by paulom »

With 1000cc and returnless, I never got more than 320 whp with ethanol.
There´s no E85 here in Brazil

I understand the benefits of using external regulator and fuel return. I´ve done cars using this all the time.
The Civic was the first time.

But sometimes, is just a a matter of low flow in the system.
With ethanol, you have to change fuel filter in 6k miles. And some fuel pumps starts to loose its performance too soon.

And...thanks !
I´ve tuned more than 100 cars, but never used this sensor overlay , only the lambda overlay :).
Now I found some use for this .

We are always learning something !!!

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