Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

2007-2008 Fit
afour_astro
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Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:18 am

I just finished installing a KWSC system on my fit and am about to flash my ECU. I am using RDX 410cc injectors instead of the FlashPro configured 310cc RC's. I open the Kraftwerks Fit calibration and change the current injector size to 410cc. I am not seeing any changes to my main fuel tables or cranking tables. I thought that these would be changed proportionally with the injector size change. I get the red dot by the change that was made, but it doesn't seem to take. Am I doing something wrong, or am I misunderstanding something. I think I will need to change the dead times manually.

Thanks

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Spunkster
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by Spunkster » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:55 am

Changing the fuel trims or injector sizes will not make any changes to the fuel tables. The fuel tables are used for minor tuning changes once the fuel trims and injector sizes have been set.

afour_astro
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:33 am

Spunkster wrote:Changing the fuel trims or injector sizes will not make any changes to the fuel tables. The fuel tables are used for minor tuning changes once the fuel trims and injector sizes have been set.
Could you explain what this portion of the help file is explaining? I am a little new with this, sorry if I am misunderstanding this.

http://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/fu ... meters.htm

Scroll down to Injector Sizes and it reads "Changing the current injector size will automatically compensate main fuel tables, cranking fuel and closed loop operation for the new injectors. Note that the injector flow is nominally at 3 bar (43.5 psi)."

Then under Fuel Trims it reads "This allows compensation of both the main fuel tables (MAP based systems), AFM and cranking fuel tables. Note that changing the injector size automatically performs the injector size compensation, and these settings normally do not need to be changed."

Thanks

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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by Spunkster » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:07 am

Exactly what part are you confused about?

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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:43 am

What you are saying is that changing the injector size will not change the tables. What I am reading is that changing the injector size automatically compensates for the injector change in the fuel tables.

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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by Spunkster » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:13 pm

Yes it does all the behind the scenes changes, but does not directly change the numbers in the fuel tables. You use the tables after everything else has been adjusted to make minor corrections to the fueling.

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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:41 pm

Thanks! Now I understand the process.

Thanks for your time.

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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by kraftwerksfit » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:12 pm

afour_astro, did you get the car up and running on this tune with the 410cc change to the map? I'm lcq4blackstar on fitfreak.net. I was answering some of your questions when your were deciding what parts to go with. I just got the flashpro in and loaded the kraftwerks 10psi map onto it. So far the only change I made was to change speed cut to 149 and change the injector size from 310cc to 410cc. Have you done any other changes to the map so far? I've yet to run the car with flashpro, if you remember I'm running the AEM FIC and just looking for some feedback on the kraftwerks map before I go ahead and pull out the FIC and harness from the stock ecu.

Unrelated but are you running a wide-band setup? Looks like I'll be wiring my AEM UEGO into the ECU so I can run the wide-band readings to the flashpro.

So far I'm really liking what I see from the flashpro as well as this GD3 dedicated forum with ACTUAL input from hondata! SO MUCH BETTER than AEM FIC forums!

afour_astro
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:47 pm

kraftwerksfit wrote:afour_astro, did you get the car up and running on this tune with the 410cc change to the map? I'm lcq4blackstar on fitfreak.net. I was answering some of your questions when your were deciding what parts to go with. I just got the flashpro in and loaded the kraftwerks 10psi map onto it. So far the only change I made was to change speed cut to 149 and change the injector size from 310cc to 410cc. Have you done any other changes to the map so far? I've yet to run the car with flashpro, if you remember I'm running the AEM FIC and just looking for some feedback on the kraftwerks map before I go ahead and pull out the FIC and harness from the stock ecu.

Unrelated but are you running a wide-band setup? Looks like I'll be wiring my AEM UEGO into the ECU so I can run the wide-band readings to the flashpro.

So far I'm really liking what I see from the flashpro as well as this GD3 dedicated forum with ACTUAL input from hondata! SO MUCH BETTER than AEM FIC forums!
I am up and running and have vit_viper doing the tune. It is going great and the Fit is a much better grocery getter now! If you want to to get tuned I would recommend Vit and he might give you a discount or I can give you a promo code.

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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by kraftwerksfit » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:47 am

Great news that your up and running! What was your decision for going for the online tune compared the kraftwerks 10psi map? Are you running other power mods that the map just couldn't cover or was it simply to get a tune exactly to your car? I'm not intercooled and decided to go with a meth injection kit first then get a tune from Church.

Can't wait to see your cars power/torque figures after the tune!

afour_astro
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:20 pm

I went with the online tune because the tune was for 310RC injectors and I am running 410RDX injectors. Just changing the injector size in the calibration area of the flash pro isn't enough as is just changes background fuel tables. I am not a tuner and want it done right. I did use the base map and did change the injector size to have a data log to send to my tuner for a start. We are a revision 1.7 from the data logs being sent. It is definitely hard on the tranny on the lower gears. I hope that extra tranny cooler is doing its job. Right now my rev limit is at 6800 and about to take it to 7100. I am a little concerned with some of the noises coming for under the hood, thought it was loose belt a first, but isn't. Some are from the SC (louder whining than usual) and the air filter is loud at low RPMs. I have this low sound from under the car around 2-3k that is just a bizarre sound. Gas mileage has dropped from 320 miles a tank of fuel to 280 a tank, but have been driving hard. I am looking for a exhaust from the cat back keeping the stock header and cat. I don't want to sound like a ricer for certain and am leaning toward a megan or tanabe setup. When I get it on the dyno I will let you know the numbers I am turning.

Oh I also am running a 85mm pulley instead of the 90mm stock with the HB setup. I have a 80mm that I might try. I need to upgrade mt map sensor as I am peaking out at 1.8 bar and am not sure what PSI i am actually getting. I am waiting to hear from rotrex to see if the 7100 rpm with a 80mm pullley will put the SC over it limits.

kraftwerksfit
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by kraftwerksfit » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 pm

Running the stock header is going to kill a lot of potential power for you... Also remember that the stock map sensor is good for no more than 10 psi. You might see boost that will kill that sensor with the higher RPM's you're shooting for. You've got an auto trans? Did you go over your initial datalog that you sent to the tuner yourself? I've got a feeling your just fine with the injector scaling... of course there will be room for fine tuning it but really, I'd be interested to see how far off the original kraftwerks map with the injector scaling compared to the map you tuner comes up with in the fuel tables.

afour_astro
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:05 pm

The original map I sent the tuner was all over the place (UGLY) and looked much better when I got my first cal. it was knock city, s-trim was -15 to +15 and way lean. I thought it would be fat, but I was wrong. The injector dead times do not scale and those have to be right on for correct fueling with the 410s. My stock sensor is reading up to 12.6 PSI with some RPM left, so I am guessing I am around 13.5-14.5 PSI. Yes this is an A/T. I plan to get a M/T in the future transfer the kit and do a swap in the A/T, if the wife doesn't kill me first...

kraftwerksfit
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by kraftwerksfit » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:54 am

Those target boost levels would be the highest I've ever heard of on the rotrex on the L15 motor. Even what you are getting right now, 12.6psi is more than JDMCHRIS was pushing. From everything I've seen the bottom end of the motor will not be able to take that. Are you running a mechanical boost gauge off of a vac line to confirm that is the actual boost pressure? The stock map sensor is indeed a 1bar, I was looking all over to see what the best option would be. http://www.hamotorsports.com/hondatakmap.html The GD3 uses the same one as the K-series motor so the 4bar offered by hondata is the most cost effective and is plug-and-play.

Here is info on the honda 1 bar sensor I pulled for you:

"The Hondata 4 bar map sensor eliminates the many hassles associated with common replacement map sensors on boosted engines. The factory Honda map sensor can only read boost accurately up to just under 1 bar (11 psi). Most other map sensors will require splicing your engine harness and rewiring to fit the new sensor. This not only makes for an unsightly install, but leaves room for mistakes and lengthy trouble shooting when things don't work out right. Eliminate all of the headaches with this Hondata 4 bar plug and play map sensor. This map sensor not only reads up to 4 bar (about 43 psi) when other aftermarket map sensors stop at 3, but it is also completely plug-n-play. The hondata map sensor has the same connector as you factory sensor and screws right into place."

Now having found that info, if you load your map in flashpro manager and go to calibration window - sensors - you will see the map sensor options listed. Stock map sensor here is listed at 1.7 bar with a max of 10psi still listed (1.7 bar = 24.6564 PSI)

Here is the break down for total pressure the stock map sensor can handle: 1.7 bar MAP sensor (stock Honda sensor): (1.7 - 1) * 14.5 = 10.15 psi

So going off of that calculation even tho some of the info I came across states 1 bar while 1.7 is listed in flashpro manager, the max psi the sensor will read is 10psi.

One other thing I see is that you have only upped your rev limit 100 rpm (over the stock kraftwerks map) and you are seeing 12.6psi on what is supposed to be a 10psi max setup, I don't think you are getting an accurate reading. I'll try and get the flashpro into the car and see what boost levels I get @ 6700 RPM. I'll datalog it and visually verify that its accurate compared to my boost gauge.

afour_astro
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Re: Kraftwerks 10psi with 410cc Injectors

Post by afour_astro » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:10 pm

When my gauge gets in I will be able to have a better reading. I was talking to another tuner and he thinks its faulty map sensor. I am starting to get funky readings. I am trying to figure out the formula for the rotrex spin ratio difference between the stock 90mm pulley and the 85 and 80. My thought process is more boost with smaller pulley? ? I am currently running a 85mm.

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