Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Civic 2016+ 1.5 Turbo
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integraguy041
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Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:23 pm

Hi Everyone,

Hoping @Hondata or someone else can give me some advice.
I went to my tuner, and got my 10th gen tuned (2018 civic HB sport)

I was happy with the numbers that it produced (93oct = 227hp/272tq, E45 Blend = 240whp/294tq).

However, my big concern is Heat and Knock control to keep the power consistent.
I am going to be working with my tuner as well, but i would like some advice just for myself, maybe some stuff i can try on the street and datalog to see feedback.

Now i will say i am not a tuner, but i do understand the basic fundamentals I think :)
I attached the tune file and the datalog with a 4th gear pull.

Any suggestions i can try would be much appreciated.

The datalog is too big to post - here is a google doc link.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIAEaE ... sp=sharing
Attachments
Flash Calibration pull Flashpro 3-9-2018.fpcal
(13.3 KiB) Downloaded 45 times

janemar
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by janemar » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:08 pm

My worriness scale in order of importance for road racing.

1. IAT - especially at high boosts, either get a big intercooler, get more airflow thru the grille or just lower the boost to be safe.
2. ECT and Oil temp - it'll go up with time and boost and outside temp. More airflow, bigger rad/oil cooler will be of great insurance.
3. Trans fluid temp and knock - just monitor.

As advise, go stock tune or very mild tune(hondata/econ mode) during practice laps and switch to normal/high boost mode for your flying laps.

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:38 am

janemar wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:08 pm
My worriness scale in order of importance for road racing.

1. IAT - especially at high boosts, either get a big intercooler, get more airflow thru the grille or just lower the boost to be safe.
2. ECT and Oil temp - it'll go up with time and boost and outside temp. More airflow, bigger rad/oil cooler will be of great insurance.
3. Trans fluid temp and knock - just monitor.

As advise, go stock tune or very mild tune(hondata/econ mode) during practice laps and switch to normal/high boost mode for your flying laps.
Thanks for the advice.
I have an upgraded IAC, CAI , getting the honeycomb grill soon.

I have an oil cooler that I'm hoping to install soon.

My real question is, these cars can produce big power numbers on a dyno, but to get consistent power levels in a road race scenario, do you have to lay off increased boost and ignition advances?

P.S. I'll be running a E40 to E60 blend when RR.

janemar
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:24 am

Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by janemar » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:23 pm

You have to determine first your desired power level. Say 250whp, then you have to answer;

Does my IAT, ECT, Oil and K.Count stabilizes after 5 hot laps or so?

If one or two items go up, then you have to solve that area.

One thing to note though that the smallish TD03 turbo efficiency map is way out of its "best" range the higher the boost you make. Result is high IAT, K.count, ECT, etc... The only way to fix is to lower boost or just upgrade turbo.

Before, alot have been pushing 27-28psi on these turbo and are proud about it, little did they know a 21psi tune makes more power than them. So its not all about higher boost means more power for this smallish turbo.

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:26 pm

janemar wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:23 pm
You have to determine first your desired power level. Say 250whp, then you have to answer;

Does my IAT, ECT, Oil and K.Count stabilizes after 5 hot laps or so?

If one or two items go up, then you have to solve that area.

One thing to note though that the smallish TD03 turbo efficiency map is way out of its "best" range the higher the boost you make. Result is high IAT, K.count, ECT, etc... The only way to fix is to lower boost or just upgrade turbo.

Before, alot have been pushing 27-28psi on these turbo and are proud about it, little did they know a 21psi tune makes more power than them. So its not all about higher boost means more power for this smallish turbo.
Very true.
I know my ECT/IAT are no issues atleast on the dyno.
From what it seems, K.Count/K.Control is going up is the biggest issue.
I am guessing due to advanced ignition timing on the knock ignition limit table + increased boost.

Think me going back to the dyno and trying to do some back to back runs looking at changing up ignition and lower boost will put me in the right direction.
If i can do several dyno runs without K.Control going up a lot, then we are going in the right direction.

Jun43
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by Jun43 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:42 am

The knock is mostly going up from too much back pressure from the turbo. it's best to lower the boost at the upper rpm

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:57 am

Jun43 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:42 am
The knock is mostly going up from too much back pressure from the turbo. it's best to lower the boost at the upper rpm
Ok I will try that as well thank you.

Jun43
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by Jun43 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:50 am

integraguy041 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:57 am
Jun43 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:42 am
The knock is mostly going up from too much back pressure from the turbo. it's best to lower the boost at the upper rpm
Ok I will try that as well thank you.
if you look at the stock , +6 or +9 calibration, The boost table tapers down at the upper rpm. I would following somewhere around that and go from there

I was looking at your Ethanol IGN tables and it seem to be on the low side. You could run more at the top end

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:22 am

Jun43 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:50 am
integraguy041 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:57 am
Jun43 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:42 am
The knock is mostly going up from too much back pressure from the turbo. it's best to lower the boost at the upper rpm
Ok I will try that as well thank you.
if you look at the stock , +6 or +9 calibration, The boost table tapers down at the upper rpm. I would following somewhere around that and go from there

I was looking at your Ethanol IGN tables and it seem to be on the low side. You could run more at the top end
Ok thanks for the advice.
I know we were fighting the ignition towards the top, but that could be because of the boost levels and how it was flat. I'll change the boost curve and dial back the boost around 10% to be around 21 psi for now, then do some more data logging.

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:05 pm

I changed the map back to the 9PSI Hondata Base Tune for Flex Fuel, and tapered the boost level off at the higher rpms.
Only thing that is not the same as the base map, is the ethanol fuel compensation, and the AFM voltage, as my tuner adjusted these.
I just don't understand why knock is going so high so quickly.
I will say that as i have been driving it, seems that knock gets back to normal a little quicker, but still.

I am not a tuner, so i am guessing that i am missing something.
From my perspective, either 1 of 3 things are happening:
1) Need to drive the car more and have it get used to the fuel
2) This 1.5T gets hot as you beat on it, and knock increases, which decreases performance
3) Tune is bad

And i could be totally wrong lol, not afraid to admit that if i am.
Attachments
datalog00041-1.fpdl
(1.21 MiB) Downloaded 39 times
Base1-+9Flexmap -Kyle Edit.fpcal
(13.26 KiB) Downloaded 31 times

Jun43
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by Jun43 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:13 pm

if you rev it up at idle, do you hear any rattle or knocks?

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:34 am

Jun43 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:13 pm
if you rev it up at idle, do you hear any rattle or knocks?
No I don't, only thing you hear is the fuel injectors inside the engine bay I believe.

How is that relevant? Just Curious...

I will say I ran the 9psi map no problem since I purchased the car without flex fuel, and the car ran great. Did pulls on the road and on the dyno and knock never moved above 55%. But I also had like 5k miles on it.

Jun43
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by Jun43 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:00 am

integraguy041 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:34 am
Jun43 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:13 pm
if you rev it up at idle, do you hear any rattle or knocks?
No I don't, only thing you hear is the fuel injectors inside the engine bay I believe.

How is that relevant? Just Curious...

I will say I ran the 9psi map no problem since I purchased the car without flex fuel, and the car ran great. Did pulls on the road and on the dyno and knock never moved above 55%. But I also had like 5k miles on it.
if something is rattling like a heat sink, it will cause a vibration that could affect the knock sensor reading

integraguy041
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Re: Advice for Road Racing - Knock Control

Post by integraguy041 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:12 am

Jun43 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:00 am
integraguy041 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:34 am
Jun43 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:13 pm
if you rev it up at idle, do you hear any rattle or knocks?
No I don't, only thing you hear is the fuel injectors inside the engine bay I believe.

How is that relevant? Just Curious...

I will say I ran the 9psi map no problem since I purchased the car without flex fuel, and the car ran great. Did pulls on the road and on the dyno and knock never moved above 55%. But I also had like 5k miles on it.
if something is rattling like a heat sink, it will cause a vibration that could affect the knock sensor reading
Ok I'll check that too.
Appreciate the help, I'm just super frustrated

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